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The Daily Sentinel has often printed editorials and letters to the editor about the evils of illegal entry and the cost to us. I suppose someone in this community exists who has been inconvenienced or deprived because of an undocumented immigrant, but I’ve not yet met him or her.
We talk about laws and rules and taxes and citizens deprived of medical services and health insurance and jobs threats. But when I phone an 800 number to inquire about my lost luggage, and talk to someone in India who is taking a job away from someone on these shores, how can I worry about a peach picker in Palisade?
It’s disturbing when a man whose ancestors have been in this area since the 1500s, long before we took this land from Mexico, is questioned about whether he “belongs” here. Each time we travel south of the border to sit under Palapas and enjoy the beaches, or build a house in Cabo, do we ask if we have a right to be there? Surely walking across the desert for three days with nothing but a jug of water and the hope of finding work to feed a hungry family is not a harmful but a responsible act. What would you do?
Somehow we’ve got to get past thinking of the migration of courageous people as a danger to us. Historically we welcomed the campesinos and the braceros and have benefited from their contributions: putting food on our tables, paying taxes, buying gasoline, and paying rent. Why is it so different now? We share many of the same values and are all part of the whole. We must think about humanitarian and compassionate ways to have an effect on the needs of others and should urge our legislators to do the same.
PATRICIA AMADEO
Grand Junction
43 Responses to “Illegal immigration and jobs”
Posted February 19th, 2008 at 12:46 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
I suggest you watch the nation wide news once in a while. When we have emergency rooms closing because of over crowding by people that arent supposed to be here, there is a problem. When we have people with no ID getting drunk and killing innocent americans, there is a problem. These ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS (read: undocumented worker, undocumented immigrant or another insanely stupid moniker) are just that, ILLEGAL. When it gets down to brass tacks, these people that unlawfully cross our border with the intent of staying here illegally for an extended amount of time are breaking the laws. Laws we have in place for a reason. Our social systems and infrastructure are only able to maintain with a limited amount of people. That is why we have a limit on the number of people we let into the country legaly each year. If there is a waiting list, so be it. Why should others get to cheat to get what some are doing the right way? If there is a waiting list for a certain “green” hybrid car, are you just going to go steal it from the factory because you “deserve” it? No. If there is a waiting list at a restraunt, are you going to just walk in, sit down with other people and start eating thier food? All because you have a “right” to eat in that establishment. NO. I will admit, you do have a right to eat there, as soon as that hostess calls your name off of the waiting list.
As for the ancestor comment, correct me if I’m wrong, but we (the USA) bought there land from Mexixo. When are we going to stop trying to guilt this generation by rehashing the past? Seriously, the 1500’s??? thats worse than people dragging up slavery. Hell you might as well try to enlist Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton to your cause. Why are you people so against the United States defending its soverignty at its borders? If I go illegally into Mexico, I get harrassed by the Mexican police, sent to jail and if im lucky get shipped back to my country of origin. And last I checked Mexico was not to keen on Americans building houses on thier soil, especially Illegally. I’m all for Immagration, just follow the rules we have as a nation. Check out the stories around southern Arizona towns that have imposed harsh penalties on employers and people that house illegal immigrants. Guess what is happening. The illegals are “SELF DEPORTING” back to Mexico. They want nothing to do with the american way of life. You say they buy things and pay taxes and purchase gasoline, yet you leave out that billions (yes BILLIONS with a B) of dollars are shipped down to mexico. how is that contributing to America? I have a problem with someone who wants to break our laws, demand that I bend to thier will and customs, speak thier language, in return for what? For them to send their money out of our country, and digrace my way of life? No thank you. If you want to LIVE here, be an American and do things our way. It is OUR country. We have the right and duty to defend it. Think about this if you are so obsessed with the past. In the past when hordes (in the millions here) of people came flowing into a country that was not thier own, what did they call it? An INVASION.
Posted February 21st, 2008 at 2:44 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Just a thought, But…
The “12 million illegal aliens” number first came up back in the 1970s and has never been updated.
Now, when the number was “created” it was only an estimate of “known” persons who had over-stayed their visas.
At no time was it ever altered to include any of those known to have crossed the borders illegally.
There have been various estimates of just how many persons cross our borders illegally each year.
The estimates range from a low of 500-600 thousand per year, to an estimated high of 2.5-4.5 million per year.
So, if a person was to take an average, somewhere between the high and low, say… 1.5 million per year.
And, figure this has been going on for oh, say, 30 years that we first started caring.
That would come in around 45 million or so.
HOWEVER, the government, and the major media (with their own political agenda)keeps sticking to the mystical 12 million number.
A difference of around 33 million persons in this country illegally.
‘Tis a quandary to be contemplated, is it not?
Let me know what you come up with.
Posted February 22nd, 2008 at 8:27 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Patricia, here’s a little follow up for you.
Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily WorldNetDaily.com
November 28 , 2006 — by Joseph Farah
Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa. If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That’s 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001.
But the carnage wrought by illegal alien murderers represents only a fraction of the pool of blood spilled by American citizens as a result of an open border and un-enforced immigration laws.
While King reports 12 Americans are murdered daily by illegal aliens, he says 13 are killed by drunk illegal alien drivers — for another annual death toll of 4,745. That’s 23,725 since Sept. 11, 2001.
King also reports eight American children are victims of sexual abuse by illegal aliens every day — a total of 2,920 annually.
Based on a one-year in-depth study, Deborah Schurman-Kauflin of the Violent Crimes Institute of Atlanta estimates there are about 240,000 illegal immigrant sex offenders in the United States who have had an average of four victims each. She analyzed 1,500 cases from January 1999 through April 2006 that included serial rapes, serial murders, sexual homicides and child molestation committed by illegal immigrants.
As the number of illegal aliens in the U.S. increases, so does the number of American victims.
According to Edwin Rubenstien, president of ESR Research Economic Consultants, in Indianapolis in 1980, federal and state correctional facilities held fewer than 9,000 criminal aliens. But at the end of 2003, approximately 267,000 illegal aliens were incarcerated in all U.S. jails and prisons.
In April 2005, the Government Accountability Office released a report on a study of 55,322 illegal aliens incarcerated in federal, state, and local facilities during 2003. It found the following:
The 55,322 illegal aliens studied represented a total of 459,614 arrests — some eight arrests per illegal alien;
Their arrests represented a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses — some 13 offenses per illegal alien; 36 percent had been arrested at least five times before.
The entire article is online, and quite extensive.
So, how many people need to suffer and die before you realize that not all ILLEGAL ALIENS are just warm, fuzzy, lovable snuggle bears?
Posted February 22nd, 2008 at 9:55 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
The full inscription on the Statue of Liberty:
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
Just a reminder.
By the way, my Irish grandfather stowed away on a ship to come to America. He was 15 at the time and was treated much like the Mexicans of today are treated. Because of his heritage, he was treated as lower class and people assumed he was a thief or a drunk. He later went on to found the first creamery/milk delivery company in Orange County, Calif. There is a statue in Santa Ana’s city hall to thank him for his accomplishments.
His crime was trespassing on a ship when he hadn’t paid the fine. The reason for the crime was freedom.
Posted February 22nd, 2008 at 2:12 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
And, gjmom, your point is what?
Any and all people shall be allowed to break our laws?
Show up and get free medical care? (paid for by American Citizens)
Free education? (paid for by American Citizens)
Free food and housing? (paid for by American Citizens)
Steal a Citizens Social Security number, claim 15 exemptions, live 2 or 3 families to a house, send most of the money they earn back home so more of their family can come up and add more of a burden to the American Taxpayer?
No thanks, We have laws for a reason.
We just don’t have ENFORCEMENT of those laws.
But, I do have some more information on this subject:
”
What if 20 Million Illegal Aliens Vacated America?
Tina Griego, journalist for the Denver Rocky Mountain News wrote a column titled, ‘Mexican Visitor’s Lament’ — 10/25/07.
She interviewed Mexican journalist Evangelina Hernandez while visiting Denver last week. Hernandez said, ‘They (illegal aliens) pay rent, buy groceries, buy clothes…What Happens to your country’s economy if 20 million people go away?’ That’s a good question - it deserves an answer. Over 80 percent of Americans demand secured borders and illegal migration stopped. But what would happen if all 20 million or more vacated America? The answers may surprise you!
In California, if 3.5 million illegal aliens moved back to Mexico, it would leave an extra $10.2 billion to spend on overloaded school systems, bankrupt hospitals and overrun prisons. It would leave highways cleaner, safer and less congested. Everyone could understand one another as English became the dominant language again.
In Colorado, 500,000 illegal migrants, plus their 300,000 kids and grand-kids - would move back ‘home’, mostly to Mexico. That would save Coloradans an estimated $2 billion (other experts say $7 billion) annually in taxes that pay for schooling, medical, social-services and incarceration costs. It means 12,000 gang members would vanish out of Denver alone.
Colorado would save more than $20 million in prison costs, and the terror that those 7,300 alien criminals set upon local citizens. Denver Officer Don Young and hundreds of Colorado victims would not have suffered death, accidents, rapes and other crimes by illegals.
Denver Public Schools would not suffer a 67 percent drop-out/flunk-out rate because of thousands of illegal alien students speaking 41 different languages. At least 200,000 vehicles would vanish from our gridlocked cities in Colorado.
Denver’s four percent unemployment rate would vanish as our working poor would gain jobs at a living wage.
In Florida, 1.5 million illegals would return the Sunshine State back to America, the rule of law, and English.
In Chicago, Illinois, 2.1 million illegals would free up hospitals, schools, prisons and highways for a safer, cleaner and more crime-free experience.
If 20 million illegal aliens returned ‘home’, the U.S. Economy would return to the rule of law. Employers would hire legal American citizens at a living wage. Everyone would pay their fair share of taxes because they wouldn’t be working off the books. That would result in an additional $401 Billion in IRS income taxes collected annually, and an equal amount for local, state and city coffers.
No more push ‘1′ for Spanish or ‘2′ for English. No more confusion in American schools that now must contend with over 100 languages that degrade the educational system for American kids. Our overcrowded schools would lose more than two million illegal alien kids at a cost of billions in ESL and free breakfasts and lunches.
We would lose 500,000 illegal criminal alien inmates at a cost of more than $1.6 billion annually. That includes 15,000 MS-13 gang members who distribute $130 billion in drugs annually would vacate our country.
In cities like L.A., 20,000 members of the ‘18th Street Gang’ would vanish from our nation. No more Mexican forgery gangs for ID theft from Americans! No more foreign rapists and child molesters!
Losing more than 20 million people would clear up our crowded highways and gridlock. Cleaner air and less drinking and driving American deaths by illegal aliens!
America’s economy is drained. Taxpayers are harmed. Employers get rich. Over $80 billion annually wouldn’t return to the aliens’ home countries by cash transfers. Illegal migrants earned half that money untaxed, which further drains America’s economy - which currently suffers an $8.7 trillion debt.
At least 400,000 anchor babies would not be born in our country, costing us $109 billion per year per cycle. At least 86 hospitals in California, Georgia and Florida would still be operating instead of being bankrupt out of existence because illegals pay nothing via the EMTOLA Act.
Americans wouldn’t suffer thousands of TB and hepatitis cases rampant in our country-brought in by illegals unscreened at our borders.
Our cities would see 20 million less people driving, polluting and grid locking our cities. It would also put the ‘progressives’ on the horns of a dilemma; illegal aliens and their families cause 11 percent of our greenhouse gases.
Over one million of Mexico’s poorest citizens now live inside and along our border from Brownsville, Texas to San Diego, California in what the New York Times called, ‘colonias’ or new neighborhoods. Trouble is, those living areas resemble Bombay and Calcutta where grinding poverty, filth, diseases, drugs, crimes, no sanitation and worse. They live without sewage, clean water, streets, electricity, roads or any kind of sanitation. The New York Times reported them to be America’s new ‘Third World’ inside our own country. Within 20 years, at their current growth rate, they expect
20 million residents of those colonias. (I’ve seen them personally in Texas and Arizona; it’s sickening beyond anything you can imagine.) By enforcing our laws, we could repatriate them back to Mexico.
We should invite 20 million aliens to go home, fix their own countries and/or make a better life in Mexico. We already invite a million people into our country legally more than all other countries combined annually. We cannot and must not allow anarchy at our borders, more anarchy within our borders and growing lawlessness at every level in our nation. It’s time to stand up for our country, our culture, our civilization and our way of life.
“
Posted February 22nd, 2008 at 4:37 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis Leon Johnson, my point is that this country was built on people being able to escape oppression by coming here.
Please cite your sources for the statistics you posted here.
If it’s from WorldNetDaily.com, then I would say that figures from a right-wing conservative site such as this are incredibly biased.
I went to WorldNetDaily.com and found headlines such as “Top shrink concludes liberals clinically nuts”. Ok, then…
It also has an article crediting the Democrats with starting the KKK. How ridiculous.
Also, in case you didn’t know, TB has been in the US for centuries–ever since the colonists (the ORIGINAL immigrants looking for a better life) brought it with them. Glenwood Springs was nationally known for its TB sanitarium.
Again, please cite your sources for the figures you posted. If they are valid statistics from a reputable non-biased organization, I will rethink my opinion of the subject.
Posted February 23rd, 2008 at 6:37 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Dear gjmom,
What you say you want(apparently to appear open minded):
“Please cite your sources for the statistics you posted here.
If it’s from WorldNetDaily.com, then I would say that figures from a right-wing conservative site such as this are incredibly biased.”
About six miles closer to the truth than anything from moveon.org, CBS, NBC, ABC, MSNBC, NYT, etc.
“It also has an article crediting the Democrats with starting the KKK. How ridiculous.”
No, not ridiculous, actual FACT! Unless you truly believe that robert byrd pushed for the Equal Rights Amendment, and NEVER belonged to that illustrious organization.
Alos, it was NOT democrats that actually pushed the Equal Rights Amendment through the Senate, but REPUBLICANS. Provable FACT, but those don’t interest you much from your tone.
“Also, in case you didn’t know, TB has been in the US for centuries–ever since the colonists (the ORIGINAL immigrants looking for a better life) brought it with them. Glenwood Springs was nationally known for its TB sanitarium.”
The key word in your diatribe is WAS. TB WAS virtually non-existent in the US from the late 40’s until it began showing up in …GASP… illegal aliens from third world countries.
Oh… Bad ME, that was another FACT.
Posted February 25th, 2008 at 1:12 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
GJMom. Just curious, what do you consider a reputable non-biased organization? I’m curious so I can find facts that will please everyone.
Posted April 26th, 2008 at 2:18 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
I notice that GJMom never answered this question.
Is it possible that there is no source of data that would be acceptable if the data failed her “feelings” test?
Actually, I’m just here to lead the children who find excuses to follow me around just to attempt to belittle and/or demean me.
But, at least I started this on topic, knowing full well that the topic would disappear with the first response from the “thoughtful ones”.
Posted April 26th, 2008 at 7:01 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
No, Willis, No one will demean or belittle you this time; I think most of us are content to just sit back and watch you and Bruce Lee beat up on someone’s Mom.
Posted April 26th, 2008 at 7:15 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
And, Willis. That would be “sanatorium”, just for the record. But you are correct about Glenwoods’ history vis a vis TB. In fact, it was the reason Doc Holliday lived there.
Oh, by the way. My Dad was in the KKK for a short time when I was a small child living in Georgia. It was decidedly non-partisan. Only white racists need apply, party affiliation not a factor.
Posted April 27th, 2008 at 8:45 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
dc, drag out your Webster’s….Willis has the correct spelling. Sanitarium.
Posted April 27th, 2008 at 9:16 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Sanitarium, Sanitorium, Sanatorium, all are acceptable alternate spellings of the same word. “Sanatorium” is considered the original correct spelling, but Willis’ use is acceptable.
Whether or not Democrats as a group actually started the KKK is in debate; what can’t be debated is that they were, in fact, the biggest adversaries to any advances in the rights of blacks after the Civil War (especially in the South); and Lincoln was, after all, a Republican. (My, how times have changed, huh?) WorldNetDaily is far from an unbiased source (it’s downright silly, at times), but that doesn’t mean they get everything wrong, all the time.
I know, I know, Willis is an intellectual coward, a wanna-be bully, a G. Gordon Liddy poser, and a borderline sociopath; but that doesn’t mean everything he says is wrong. If he says the sun comes up in the east, you can’t deny that just because of who he is personally. It’d be nice to be able to do that, but it wouldn’t be right.
Posted April 27th, 2008 at 12:58 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Now curmie, when you made this comment you were just a little out of line:
“- I know, I know, Willis is an intellectual coward, a wanna-be bully, a G. Gordon Liddy poser, and a borderline sociopath; -”
State your proof, and personal opinion is not ‘proof’, just your typical “I can’t deal with facts and I must detract from the fact that others no more than I do, crybaby, attitude.”
Or do I keep referring to you, and your buddies and monkey boys?
We do keep running into the problem from the liberal bent of “monkey see, monkey do”.
I checked with my Pastor this morning, I descended from Humans.
But I would never deny your freedom of religion that states you descended from monkeys.
Posted April 27th, 2008 at 2:49 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
My statements stand. Anyone who can read your own words can see the hate, hostility, and vaguely worded threats. You won’t look at them yourself, however, preferring superior ignorance to any sort of introspection. You have an apparent compulsion to turn every thread into “Look at how smart and mean and threatening Willis is”; suggesting a need to compensate for something. Your constant use of elementary school taunts “babies, crybabies, little so-an-so,” etc, shows a disturbing regression, from someone who claims to be old enough to have served during the Vietnam Conflict.
Wow, your Pastor told you, huh? I’m sure he’s cool, having God’s voice and all that. Who knew taking care of one’s flock as Jesus directed includes telling them about science. The Jesus I read about didn’t have anything to say on the matter of evolution. But I must have read a different Bible. Next Sunday, ask Pastor how old the earth is.
As for me, I prefer making my own conclusions (I actually belive there is some Intelligence behind our Design) based on reason and information, rather than taking the word of some guy in a cheap suit who got his education at Caucasian Jesus Bible College in Kiss-Your-Sister, Missitucky.
And you talk about indoctrination……
Posted April 27th, 2008 at 3:26 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
gjmom, there is absolutely no argument from me that this country needs a steady flow of immigrants. We need them at both ends of the economic spectrum. But we need them to come here LEGALLY. No country that I know of allows their borders to be violated with impunity. We are dealing with the issue of security. You cannot, out of compassion, allow everyone who wants to escape poor economic conditions to come here.
We must secure the borders. Only then can we deal with the 12 million (or whatever the number) that are already here illegally. In my opinion there is no realistic way to force those folks who are already integrated into our society to go back to their coutry of origin. So a way must be found to keep them here (other than the criminals) but they must be fully registered and they must pay a penalty for having come here illegally.
Posted April 27th, 2008 at 3:34 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Those who have even attempted to discuss any issue with Curmudgeon have quickly come to the realization that one is attempting to communicate with an individual who appears to be exceedingly shallow, both emotionally and intellectually.
That is why, when someone disagrees with him on issues, he has to resort to denigration and name-calling.
It is doubtful if the person is capable of comprehending any issue beyond that of “feeling.”
One may therefore conclude that, when not engaged in “splattering” across the boards attempting to gain attention, he is probably listening to the many “bombastic buffoons” to which we are constantly bombarded on “talk radio” and television.
While the individual may know “of” things, what is found totally lacking is any type of understanding of them.
What he “believes” HAS to be true, and therefore anyone who disagrees with him is attacking him personally.
Such is more appropriate to an ill-mannered child in the playground, rather than an adult but, that being said, he is free to reinforce that impression we have of him any time he wants.
Which, he undoubtedly will, and which we will have to tolerate.
His position on illegal aliens seems to be, if we enforce the immigration laws, we are racists for picking on “brown people” rather than accept the fact that we are “picking” on any person of any skin color in this nation illegally.
Posted April 27th, 2008 at 3:42 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
bullish, that’s a reasonable position, but what kind of penalty would there be? You raise a good, point, though, in that 12 million (or so) people who’ve broken the law can’t simply have amnesty. And how do you make the penalty severe enough to mean something, but moderate enough not to prevent them from “coming out”, as it were? This is a problem that has gone on too long and is too extensive to have a simple solution, but you raise some important and overlooked moral issues.
Posted April 27th, 2008 at 4:50 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
How about “community service’ as a reasonable price to pay? A year or two in a work setting that could even include language training? It could even be done on some part time or seasonal basis to allow those already holding down good jobs an opportunity to keep those jobs.
Is that too simple?
Posted April 27th, 2008 at 5:24 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
No, dc, that’s pretty reasonable. I had thought “penalty” was referring to something punitive, rather than constructive, and while I thought. Actually, Community Service is a darn good idea.
Posted April 27th, 2008 at 5:36 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Thank you, sir/ma’am
Hey Willis,
What do YOU think? If I could get you and Curmudgeon to agree on something, I would have SUCH a sense of accomplishment.
Posted April 27th, 2008 at 5:51 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Actually, dc, I’ve agreed with Willis on a few things, previously. My arguments are not with his opinions, which he has a right to.
That’s not to take away from your good idea, though.
Posted April 27th, 2008 at 7:31 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Thanks, awfully. It is a pity that Willis is such a reactionary fellow with those ideas he is packing. I, too, sometimes agree with Willis L. Johnson. But don’t let it go to your head, Willis.
Maybe if we all just try to keep making nice, we can elevate this discourse to a new level of sophistication and compassion…….naahhh. Where’s the fun in that?
Anyway, the subject of illegal immigration is just a very tough nut. As a general contractor for many years, I can tell you that there are two sides to this story and each side has a legitimate argument. I don’t pretend to know the answers, but I do know that there is entirely too much demonizing going on in both directions. There are certainly bad boys and girls out there on both sides of the issue. But most, Anglo and Latino both, are just hard working folks, trying to survive.
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 8:15 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Why are the “illegals” here? They have a better existence here than at home. Why is that? Their country lacks development that considers the well being of all it’s citizens. Why is that? They still resemble colonial governance with a plutocracy that serves it’s own interests. How can that still exist in the 21st century? Hint: it serves our economic interests and they are a bulwark against disorder on our border, revolution and incursion of that old boogie man, communism, in our hemisphere. Why can so many “illegals” exist in our country? They find jobs. But hiring them is illegal. How can employers get away with it? The powers that want cheap labor have greater influence with Congress than those who don’t want them here. Why would those that hate the idea of minimum wages want to get rid of cheap labor so that they have to pay minmum wages–probably far more–to get Americans to do distasteful, menial work in poor working conditions? Do we need an orderly guest worker program? Probably, but that means controls and that means a much bigger bureaucracy and huge expense. How would we do that without higher taxes or bigger deficits and more debts for our kids to pay off? In the end, “illegals” keep coming because those that want them here out-power those that don’t. It’s not a simple problem and it sure doesn’t lend itself to simple solutions. Fences might slow them down–for awhile–and huge roundups of those already here are a pipe-dream. They are here because the forces that want them here don’t have any interest in losing them and doing what is necessary to bring order into a very costly system to bring the current “system” under control. Why did Congress vote down a program that at least had the outlines of the beginning of an orderly system? Was it incomplete and had flaws? Probably, but if that was recognized why wasn’t a better plan introduced that corrected the flaws? Follow the money.
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 8:55 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Ahh, John B. shows his liberal colors with this posting. According to him, the reason Mexico is an economic disaster is the fault of the United States. And the reason we want Mexicans to be poor, and be a source of cheap labor for the US is because US corporations, the most evil entities in the globe, want it that way. And the reason the Congress cannot pass a good immigration law is because Congress is in the pocket of those evil corporations.
First of all, a wealthier Mexico would be good for those evil corporations because they would be a bigger client for our exports. Second, I would suggest that the reason most Democratic Congressmen are not in a huge hurry to stop illegal immigration is because Mexican American don’t want it stopped and the Mexican American community votes overwhelmingly Democratic.
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 10:41 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Easy there, bullish, I don’t think John’s posting has anything to do with liberal vs. conservative. The point, as it often (always) is with the politics of an issue is ‘follow the money’. Things like facts and liberal/conservative values and morality get tossed out the window when there’s lots of cash to be made.
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 11:04 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Several points.
A: This letter was published on feb 14th, and spent a long time dormant until I resurrected it for the reason stated in #9.
Curmudgeon and dc proved me correct.
B: Bullishfrog is correct in his deciphering JohnB’s post as a liberal conspiracy.
C: Toaaronuu is also correct when he stated that MONEY overrules political “values” in Washington DC.
But my question now is; isn’t ‘political’ and ‘values’, when used together the same as a double negative?
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 11:06 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
So, do you agree with John B that Mexico’s corrupt system of government is because that is what the US wants? In other words, whatever is wrong with Mexico’s economy is our fault? That’s what he is saying. And it is the typical position taken by liberals that whatever woes exist in the world, it’s the fault of the US.
Look, I am all in favor of immigration from Mexico. We need those folks here to take the jobs that Americans won’t take for the price the jobs are worth. Without immigration we would have to pay $20 an hour to clean motel rooms. Any idea of what that would do to our economy? But the immigrants need to come here LEGALLY. And I have no problem punishing employers who hire illegals. But first, we must secure the border and get a flow of legal immigrants to take the jobs that we need filled here.
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 11:41 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Bullish, I’m not here to stick up for John B., but if you read his post, he is not blaming the US, but rather the powers that be, which, in this case, are the people who will benefit most from a source of cheap labor.
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 11:52 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Furthermore, it is not constructive or true to say that ‘liberals’ blame America first for everything. It can be said that ‘liberals’ are not blind to the fact that we as a country have made some horrible mistakes and we are sometimes at least partly to blame for messes we have gotten ourselves into.
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 11:55 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Sorry guys, I was unable to carry on the conversation. My 8 month old recently had to have major surgery, so my attention has been needed elsewhere.
It was not an attempt to dodge questions, it’s just that I do have a life.
But I have decided not to comment any further on this particular subject, I hear enough unreasonable arguments and name-calling from my kids.
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 12:02 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
toaaronuu, you say John B does not blame the US. Well, it sure looks like he does when he writes:
“Hint: it serves our economic interests and they are a bulwark against disorder on our border, revolution and incursion of that old boogie man, communism, in our hemisphere.”
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 12:14 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
I guess we’re down to semantics now, but I would take that “our” he uses to mean those of us who actually benefit from those economic interests, which happens also to mean those folks who are pulling the strings. Certainly not you or me or probably John.
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 3:45 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
bullishfrog, in the real world our policies toward other countries do not have to be overt to undermine or support the regime in power. The people of a country have the responsibility to determine the type of governance they want whether it is by democratic means or revolution. Our policies toward Mexico have been relatively benign because, under the primarily right-wing, one-party government Mexico has had, the people’s inclination toward anything else has been kept in check. Mexico has posed no particular threat to our country ideologically and its administrations have kept order and the threat of anything spilling over to us.Except drug trafficing, of course. The same cannot be said for Central America where we have meddled to varying degrees for decades. Ever hear of United Fruit, banana republics and Iran-Contra for starters? Mexico’s development, or lack of same, is not our “fault” but we certainly haven’t gone out of our way to stimulate development for the very reason of the lack of transparency, a laxity of the rule of law and corruption that make it a poor place to invest.
Evil corporations? Who said that? Corporations are amoral and not generally devices for social change. They are in business for profitability for their investors. Successful corporations operate on the edge of the law to be competitive. They often go over the edge if it is profitable to do so and the penalties and evalution of public sentiment make it worthwhile.
Finlly, label me with whatever term you feel suits you but you don’t have a clue what I think about any issue on which I have not spoken out. Simple labels usually indicate simplistic thinking and our immigration problems are anything but simple—and costly. And by the way,many–most?–Mexican Americans as far as I can tell want illegal immigration stopped and feel that they are given a bad rap by all of the things mentioned in posts above.
But why let little things like that get in the way of taking shots at the Democrats? Our current out of control situation was caused by lack of attention by both Republican and Democratic administrations. Both parties need all the donors they can get and the donors usually get their way. And they like the situation just as it is.
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 6:04 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
John, I have read enough of your letter to the editor, confirmed by what you have written above, to know exactly where you stand. Maybe liberal is not the correct way to characterize you. Socialist might be the better term. But hey, to each his own. It’s a free country.
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 7:12 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
bullishfrog, if you feel compelled to describe people in a simplistic way by putting people in boxes, be my guest. I know who I am and I prefer to look at problems in a non-ideological way to determine what is the best way to solve them in the best way for people, not institutions, or worse yet, ideological fundamentalism. You appear to be hung up on the stale shibboleth that all problems can magically be solved through private enterprise. Often that can be demonstrated to be true, but not always. If your objective is to label me with a toxic label, in your opinion, my guess is that those who understand that all of human experience is complex might feel that your simplistic categorizing puts a toxic tinge on your character and analytical capabilities.
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 7:51 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
You know John, it always amazes me when folks whose political philosohy is at the left end of the spectrum, appear offended when someone calls them a liberal, or a socialist. And yet, they have no problem putting labels such as conservative or right wing to those who disagree with them. Maybe you don’t do that and that’s fine. I doubt that a conservative would be offended to be called conservative. I think I could probably guess where you stand on just about any of the major political issues. As I wrote earlier, it’s a free country and you are welcome to believe whatever you want. And if you believe that most corporations are evil, that the US is responsible for most of what’s wrong with the world, that’s your prerogative.
Posted April 28th, 2008 at 8:40 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
No, Bullishfrog. The love of money is the root of all evil. And Corporations love money. 2+2=4
Posted April 29th, 2008 at 7:09 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Close, but not quite.
With money comes power.
The more money you have, the more power you can exert over another person.
The desire for power by far supersedes the desire for money.
Money is only the tool.
Posted April 29th, 2008 at 7:43 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
bullishfrog, you have made quite a leap in “interpreting” what I have written. Amoral is not a synonym for evil. I don’t believe all corporations are evil.In fact, I can’t think of even one I’d put in that category. How did you come up with the idea that the “US is responsible for most of what’s wrong with the world”? Sweeping generalizations for what people you put in your little boxes supposedly believes is not a tactic of inelligent discourse but that of an ideologue. You seemed to have leaped to unwarranted conclusions from my pointing out some less-than-admirable intrusions into the affairs of other countries to the south of us. It has happened all over the world where our foreign policy was questionably tied to the protection and furtherance of the interests of private American corporations. That’s a long way from saying all that’s wrong with the world can be laid at the feet of our country.
Posted April 29th, 2008 at 7:50 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
to get back on topic here, i’m going to make a statement that will probably upset a few of you….as john b. correctly states, “Why are the “illegals” here? They have a better existence here than at home. Why is that? Their country lacks development that considers the well being of all it’s citizens. “…this is true….and the mexican government will continue to do nothing to curtail the rush north as long as the illegals here continue to send vast amounts of money back home…we’re good for the mexican economy…i’ve no problem whatsoever with immigration, provided its LEGAL and those same immigrants immerse themselves into the american culture (speak and read english) without committing crimes…if things are so horrible in their home country, then they need to effect changes, just like we did a little over 200 years ago…willis, regardless of whether greed for power supercedes the greed for money is irrelevant…the simple fact is that billions are made off the backs of illegals, and the costs to our general economy gets passed on to us all
Posted April 29th, 2008 at 7:51 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
by the way, people, it’ld be nice to have a debate without all the vitriol being spewed
Posted April 29th, 2008 at 8:11 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Amen, hitekredneck.
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