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	<title>Comments on: We are a nation of &#8216;believers&#8217;, not &#8216;thinkers&#8217;</title>
	<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/</link>
	<description>Grand Junction, Colorado's community Web site, discussions, forums, message boards, wiki and more.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Willis_Leon_Johnson</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1737</link>
		<dc:creator>Willis_Leon_Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 18:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1737</guid>
		<description>Curmudgeon, go ahead with "good will hunting", I'm currently working on getting "War and Peace" on here in this thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curmudgeon, go ahead with &#8220;good will hunting&#8221;, I&#8217;m currently working on getting &#8220;War and Peace&#8221; on here in this thread.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1731</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 17:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1731</guid>
		<description>My favorite part of the Dover trial testimony was when Michael Behe (of Darwin's Black Box fame) admitted that in order for ID to be considered science, astrology would also qualify as science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My favorite part of the Dover trial testimony was when Michael Behe (of Darwin&#8217;s Black Box fame) admitted that in order for ID to be considered science, astrology would also qualify as science.</p>
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		<title>By: Curmudgeon</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1730</link>
		<dc:creator>Curmudgeon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 17:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1730</guid>
		<description>So, my plan to cut-and-paste the entire "Good Will Hunting" screenplay is a bad idea?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, my plan to cut-and-paste the entire &#8220;Good Will Hunting&#8221; screenplay is a bad idea?</p>
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		<title>By: John B.</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1728</link>
		<dc:creator>John B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 17:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1728</guid>
		<description>toaarunuu, you are out of order. Willis ruled it so. Only he can ramble on any subject regardless of the original subject of the discussion. In any event, we all know that those are just the judges opinions and not really the all-important facts. Sooner or later we'll be set straight but probably in a string on another topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>toaarunuu, you are out of order. Willis ruled it so. Only he can ramble on any subject regardless of the original subject of the discussion. In any event, we all know that those are just the judges opinions and not really the all-important facts. Sooner or later we&#8217;ll be set straight but probably in a string on another topic.</p>
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		<title>By: toaaronuu</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1725</link>
		<dc:creator>toaaronuu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 16:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1725</guid>
		<description>On I.D., here's my favorite--Kitzmiller vs. Dover Area School District. The decision comes from a conservative judge, hand-picked by the Bush administration, and the argument for I.D, was so pitiful, not even he could say anything even nice about it. Here's some qoutes from the decision:



On 20 December 2005, Judge Jones found for the plaintiffs and issued a 139 page decision, in which he wrote:
Wikisource has original text related to this article:
Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District et al.

    "For the reasons that follow, we conclude that the religious nature of ID [intelligent design] would be readily apparent to an objective observer, adult or child" (page 24)

    "A significant aspect of the IDM [intelligent design movement] is that despite Defendants’ protestations to the contrary, it describes ID as a religious argument. In that vein, the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity." (page 26)

    "The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism" (page 31)

    "The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory." (page 43)

    "Throughout the trial and in various submissions to the Court, Defendants vigorously argue that the reading of the statement is not “teaching” ID but instead is merely “making students aware of it.” In fact, one consistency among the Dover School Board members’ testimony, which was marked by selective memories and outright lies under oath, as will be discussed in more detail below, is that they did not think they needed to be knowledgeable about ID because it was not being taught to the students. We disagree." (footnote 7 on page 46)

    "After a searching review of the record and applicable caselaw, we find that while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science. We find that ID fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980's; and (3) ID's negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community." (page 64)

    "[T]he one textbook [Pandas] to which the Dover ID Policy directs students contains outdated concepts and flawed science, as recognized by even the defense experts in this case." (pages 86–87)

    "ID’s backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard. The goal of the IDM is not to encourage critical thought, but to foment a revolution which would supplant evolutionary theory with ID." (page 89)

    "Accordingly, we find that the secular purposes claimed by the Board amount to a pretext for the Board’s real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom, in violation of the Establishment Clause." (page 132)

Judge John E. Jones III issued the decision in the case
Judge John E. Jones III issued the decision in the case

In his Conclusion on pages 136–138 of 139 of this decision he writes:

    The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board’s ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents. [...]

    The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy. With that said, we do not question that many of the leading advocates of ID have bona fide and deeply held beliefs which drive their scholarly endeavors. Nor do we controvert that ID should continue to be studied, debated, and discussed. As stated, our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On I.D., here&#8217;s my favorite&#8211;Kitzmiller vs. Dover Area School District. The decision comes from a conservative judge, hand-picked by the Bush administration, and the argument for I.D, was so pitiful, not even he could say anything even nice about it. Here&#8217;s some qoutes from the decision:</p>
<p>On 20 December 2005, Judge Jones found for the plaintiffs and issued a 139 page decision, in which he wrote:<br />
Wikisource has original text related to this article:<br />
Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District et al.</p>
<p>    &#8220;For the reasons that follow, we conclude that the religious nature of ID [intelligent design] would be readily apparent to an objective observer, adult or child&#8221; (page 24)</p>
<p>    &#8220;A significant aspect of the IDM [intelligent design movement] is that despite Defendants’ protestations to the contrary, it describes ID as a religious argument. In that vein, the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity.&#8221; (page 26)</p>
<p>    &#8220;The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism&#8221; (page 31)</p>
<p>    &#8220;The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.&#8221; (page 43)</p>
<p>    &#8220;Throughout the trial and in various submissions to the Court, Defendants vigorously argue that the reading of the statement is not “teaching” ID but instead is merely “making students aware of it.” In fact, one consistency among the Dover School Board members’ testimony, which was marked by selective memories and outright lies under oath, as will be discussed in more detail below, is that they did not think they needed to be knowledgeable about ID because it was not being taught to the students. We disagree.&#8221; (footnote 7 on page 46)</p>
<p>    &#8220;After a searching review of the record and applicable caselaw, we find that while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science. We find that ID fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980&#8217;s; and (3) ID&#8217;s negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community.&#8221; (page 64)</p>
<p>    &#8220;[T]he one textbook [Pandas] to which the Dover ID Policy directs students contains outdated concepts and flawed science, as recognized by even the defense experts in this case.&#8221; (pages 86–87)</p>
<p>    &#8220;ID’s backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard. The goal of the IDM is not to encourage critical thought, but to foment a revolution which would supplant evolutionary theory with ID.&#8221; (page 89)</p>
<p>    &#8220;Accordingly, we find that the secular purposes claimed by the Board amount to a pretext for the Board’s real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom, in violation of the Establishment Clause.&#8221; (page 132)</p>
<p>Judge John E. Jones III issued the decision in the case<br />
Judge John E. Jones III issued the decision in the case</p>
<p>In his Conclusion on pages 136–138 of 139 of this decision he writes:</p>
<p>    The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board’s ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents. [&#8230;]</p>
<p>    The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy. With that said, we do not question that many of the leading advocates of ID have bona fide and deeply held beliefs which drive their scholarly endeavors. Nor do we controvert that ID should continue to be studied, debated, and discussed. As stated, our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom.</p>
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		<title>By: dc</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1723</link>
		<dc:creator>dc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 16:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1723</guid>
		<description>You guys are so much fun. Seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You guys are so much fun. Seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: Willis_Leon_Johnson</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1722</link>
		<dc:creator>Willis_Leon_Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 16:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1722</guid>
		<description>psssst... JohnB....

'intelligent design' is not the topic currently under discussion....

My world isn't crumbling, what planet are you on?  Do I need to send the mothership for you?

What can I do to help?

If you vote to lower my taxes, I could send money...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>psssst&#8230; JohnB&#8230;.</p>
<p>&#8216;intelligent design&#8217; is not the topic currently under discussion&#8230;.</p>
<p>My world isn&#8217;t crumbling, what planet are you on?  Do I need to send the mothership for you?</p>
<p>What can I do to help?</p>
<p>If you vote to lower my taxes, I could send money&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John B.</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1719</link>
		<dc:creator>John B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 16:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1719</guid>
		<description>Where's Willis when we so badly need him? Everybody needs an anchor and some sense of certainty in their life and we are fortunate to have the wild and wonderful Willis World here in Happy Valley. Surely he's not absent because of not having the absolute, final word on Intelligent Design? Our world is crumbling before our very eyes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where&#8217;s Willis when we so badly need him? Everybody needs an anchor and some sense of certainty in their life and we are fortunate to have the wild and wonderful Willis World here in Happy Valley. Surely he&#8217;s not absent because of not having the absolute, final word on Intelligent Design? Our world is crumbling before our very eyes.</p>
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		<title>By: dc</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1713</link>
		<dc:creator>dc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 16:09:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1713</guid>
		<description>Not taking sides here. May I suggest, however, that those interested in the subject of rationalizing and justifying conclusions read "The Black Swan" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. Black Swans do come along. (I think Darwins' visit to the Galapagos qualifies as such.) When they do, we must be careful how we arrive at conclusions. We are frequently dead wrong.

Oh, and are we now talking about the fact of the evolutionary process, or the theory of Creation? I am a liberal and therefore have limited mental capacity. So please, have mercy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not taking sides here. May I suggest, however, that those interested in the subject of rationalizing and justifying conclusions read &#8220;The Black Swan&#8221; by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. Black Swans do come along. (I think Darwins&#8217; visit to the Galapagos qualifies as such.) When they do, we must be careful how we arrive at conclusions. We are frequently dead wrong.</p>
<p>Oh, and are we now talking about the fact of the evolutionary process, or the theory of Creation? I am a liberal and therefore have limited mental capacity. So please, have mercy.</p>
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		<title>By: Curmudgeon</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1711</link>
		<dc:creator>Curmudgeon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 15:47:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/04/30/we-are-a-nation-of-believers-not-thinkers/#comment-1711</guid>
		<description>Don't do it, Willis! He's just trying to RickRoll you!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t do it, Willis! He&#8217;s just trying to RickRoll you!!</p>
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