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	<title>Comments on: Printed letters, May 1, 2008</title>
	<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/</link>
	<description>Grand Junction, Colorado's community Web site, discussions, forums, message boards and more.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 04:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: RLaitres</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1761</link>
		<dc:creator>RLaitres</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 00:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1761</guid>
		<description>gfbyers: It was not my intent to constrain the conversation or divert attention from the central point.  In fact, if some of our "decision makers" paid more attention to what the people wanted and thought, that instead of constantly trying to "tell us" (in the mistaken notion that they "know everything"), this country might be better off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gfbyers: It was not my intent to constrain the conversation or divert attention from the central point.  In fact, if some of our &#8220;decision makers&#8221; paid more attention to what the people wanted and thought, that instead of constantly trying to &#8220;tell us&#8221; (in the mistaken notion that they &#8220;know everything&#8221;), this country might be better off.</p>
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		<title>By: gfbyers</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1753</link>
		<dc:creator>gfbyers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 22:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1753</guid>
		<description>That is true RL, but there would be two ways to look at it.  One, this thread was started by discussion on ethanol only so that has been the main subject of the posts, but two, even if each of us posts our own ideas on the subject I feel this exchange of ideas will broaden all of our knowledge on the subject, which is what this forum should be about rather than the personal attacts that I have been seeing on a continous basis since I've started following the posts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is true RL, but there would be two ways to look at it.  One, this thread was started by discussion on ethanol only so that has been the main subject of the posts, but two, even if each of us posts our own ideas on the subject I feel this exchange of ideas will broaden all of our knowledge on the subject, which is what this forum should be about rather than the personal attacts that I have been seeing on a continous basis since I&#8217;ve started following the posts.</p>
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		<title>By: RLaitres</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1750</link>
		<dc:creator>RLaitres</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 21:23:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1750</guid>
		<description>The other posters will have to excuse me but, as I look at all of these posts, on the issue of energy alone, it is notable that nobody wants to broaden the discussion to the entire field of energy.  What is all too obvious is that every individual looks on it from a very narrow perspective of "personal experience" or "personal interests."  As a result we, and in that "we" nobody is excluded, even this individual at times.  Unfortunately, that all too frequently results in an attempt to treat symptoms only, and never addresses the "cause(s)."

Like many other social, economic or political problems, one can only recognize and identify that with which one is familiar.  And, it is only based upon that view that one can possibly look for a remedy.  It reminds me of that saying "If all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail."  It is also true that no matter how much wood one has, but he has not brick, it is impossible to build any brick structure, and vice versa.  Yet, in many cases, many attempt to do just that.  They need brick, but the only thing they do is keep collecting more wood, instead of even beginning to look for bricks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The other posters will have to excuse me but, as I look at all of these posts, on the issue of energy alone, it is notable that nobody wants to broaden the discussion to the entire field of energy.  What is all too obvious is that every individual looks on it from a very narrow perspective of &#8220;personal experience&#8221; or &#8220;personal interests.&#8221;  As a result we, and in that &#8220;we&#8221; nobody is excluded, even this individual at times.  Unfortunately, that all too frequently results in an attempt to treat symptoms only, and never addresses the &#8220;cause(s).&#8221;</p>
<p>Like many other social, economic or political problems, one can only recognize and identify that with which one is familiar.  And, it is only based upon that view that one can possibly look for a remedy.  It reminds me of that saying &#8220;If all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.&#8221;  It is also true that no matter how much wood one has, but he has not brick, it is impossible to build any brick structure, and vice versa.  Yet, in many cases, many attempt to do just that.  They need brick, but the only thing they do is keep collecting more wood, instead of even beginning to look for bricks.</p>
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		<title>By: toaaronuu</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1746</link>
		<dc:creator>toaaronuu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 20:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1746</guid>
		<description>There's always the Church of Euthanasia--you know the bumper sticker that says "Save the world--Kill yourself!" Now that is a radical leftist position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s always the Church of Euthanasia&#8211;you know the bumper sticker that says &#8220;Save the world&#8211;Kill yourself!&#8221; Now that is a radical leftist position.</p>
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		<title>By: Chancho</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1744</link>
		<dc:creator>Chancho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 20:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1744</guid>
		<description>what happened was somehow we allowed the church to make political decisions and convince the masses that birth control is immoral. but, hey, on the other hand, starvation, disease and mass suffering is acceptable! just ask the pope or momma teresa (well, read about her actions instead).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what happened was somehow we allowed the church to make political decisions and convince the masses that birth control is immoral. but, hey, on the other hand, starvation, disease and mass suffering is acceptable! just ask the pope or momma teresa (well, read about her actions instead).</p>
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		<title>By: one.voice</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1742</link>
		<dc:creator>one.voice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 19:53:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1742</guid>
		<description>Would we be discussing alternative fuels, food shortages, high fuel cost, high taxes, costs etc., if there were one third less people in the world? The ultimate solution to these problems is less people. We can choose from several options: war, famine, disease, or draconian birth control laws. It will be debated until a solution is absolutely necessary. Then there will be a hue and cry and a great gnashing of teeth from the world to "Do Something." When that day comes, demands will be put forth to achieve "less People" by any means necessary.  Do any of you remember the zero population movement of the 70's? What ever happened to that? I don't know what all the answers are, but I do know that if we don't curb the population explosion, our children or our great grandchildren will damn well freeze in the dark. If mankind does not take control of the situation, the Mother Nature will and she is a cold hard_____.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would we be discussing alternative fuels, food shortages, high fuel cost, high taxes, costs etc., if there were one third less people in the world? The ultimate solution to these problems is less people. We can choose from several options: war, famine, disease, or draconian birth control laws. It will be debated until a solution is absolutely necessary. Then there will be a hue and cry and a great gnashing of teeth from the world to &#8220;Do Something.&#8221; When that day comes, demands will be put forth to achieve &#8220;less People&#8221; by any means necessary.  Do any of you remember the zero population movement of the 70&#8217;s? What ever happened to that? I don&#8217;t know what all the answers are, but I do know that if we don&#8217;t curb the population explosion, our children or our great grandchildren will damn well freeze in the dark. If mankind does not take control of the situation, the Mother Nature will and she is a cold hard_____.</p>
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		<title>By: bullishfrog</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1741</link>
		<dc:creator>bullishfrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 18:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1741</guid>
		<description>Nigel, I don't disagree with you on the need to replace oil. But I believe that even with a huge effort, it will take many years to get there.  We need to accelerate the process as much as possible.

Having said that, I know we disagree on nuclear. I believe we need to move in that direction as the primary means of generating electricity and replacing coal.  We might even be able to use nuclear to power most vehicles if better batteries are developed.

We also disagree on the issue of drilling for oil in the US. I would do it to replace as much of our imports as possible.  The objective would not be to increase oil usage, just to replace imports.  We could raise a huge amount of money from new found oil.  Someone wrote here yesterday that there are over 20 billion barrels of recoverable oil in the US.  It would take 5 or more years to get the first drop of that oil if we started development now.  Assume $200 per barrel and that translates into 4 trillion dollars.  Put a 20% tax on that and you could generate 800 billion dollars that could go into alternative fuels.  Then put an increasing tax on gasoline to make sure consumption decreases.

Now, I realize that there is opposition to drilling anywhere in the world.  But Nigel, we need to make some compromises or we won't get anywhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nigel, I don&#8217;t disagree with you on the need to replace oil. But I believe that even with a huge effort, it will take many years to get there.  We need to accelerate the process as much as possible.</p>
<p>Having said that, I know we disagree on nuclear. I believe we need to move in that direction as the primary means of generating electricity and replacing coal.  We might even be able to use nuclear to power most vehicles if better batteries are developed.</p>
<p>We also disagree on the issue of drilling for oil in the US. I would do it to replace as much of our imports as possible.  The objective would not be to increase oil usage, just to replace imports.  We could raise a huge amount of money from new found oil.  Someone wrote here yesterday that there are over 20 billion barrels of recoverable oil in the US.  It would take 5 or more years to get the first drop of that oil if we started development now.  Assume $200 per barrel and that translates into 4 trillion dollars.  Put a 20% tax on that and you could generate 800 billion dollars that could go into alternative fuels.  Then put an increasing tax on gasoline to make sure consumption decreases.</p>
<p>Now, I realize that there is opposition to drilling anywhere in the world.  But Nigel, we need to make some compromises or we won&#8217;t get anywhere.</p>
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		<title>By: gfbyers</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1740</link>
		<dc:creator>gfbyers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 18:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1740</guid>
		<description>This is where it all started:  Taken from the New York Times,  Published: August 4, 1994

"With a tie-breaking vote by Vice President Al Gore, the Senate upheld today an Environmental Protection Agency rule requiring that ethanol and other renewable fuels get a share of the gasoline additives market. 

The Senate voted 51-50 to table an amendment that would have denied financing to the agency to carry out a rule guaranteeing renewable fuels a 15 percent share of the lucrative fuel oxygenate market in 1995. That share rises to 30 percent in following years. 

Under the Clean Air Act, oxygenates, which make fuel burn more cleanly, are to be added to gasoline in the nation's smoggiest areas. 

Tabling the amendment, offered by Democratic Senators Bennett J. Johnston of Louisiana and Bill Bradley of New Jersey, in effect kills it and clears the way for E.P.A. to carry out its program. 

Farm state senators backed the agency's renewable fuels rule as a way to increase demand for corn, the main ingredient in ethanol. 

They also said it would keep the oil industry from locking out ethanol and creating a monopoly for methanol oxygenates made from fossil fuels. 

But other senators said the rule would raise fuel prices, cost hundreds of millions of dollars in lost gas taxes and provide no environmental benefit over methanol oxygenates. 

The rule's critics also said it was a boon to the Archer Daniels Midland Company, a corn processing giant, which has more than 60 percent of the ethanol market. But supporters said new farmer cooperatives would get the added business and Archer Daniels' overall ethanol market share would shrink. Ethanol is the only widely produced renewable fuel. 

The rule is to take effect Jan. 1, when the reformulated fuels program starts. 

Two oil industry trade organizations, however, are suing the E.P.A. in Federal court to try to block the rule."

End of article. 

 I would also like to have the figures of how much tractor fuel in needed in the production of the corn during planting, culivating, harvesting and transporting to the purchaser compared to how much ethanol is realized.  This argument would hold true also for any other farm product used in ethanol production....farm products don't just happen you know.
Regarding Exxon's profit's, I just checked the market and they are paying 1.40 a share.  53% of their stock is held in funds that are the basis of 401k's and IRA's.  If you have either one you are a stockholder.  The profit figures seem obcene until you realize how many shareholders are involved.  The profit margin that is commonly bandied about, not only from the oil companies but from financial institutions with no bias, is 8% of their gross.  Hey folks, we're not talking a mom and pop operation, they are BIG!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is where it all started:  Taken from the New York Times,  Published: August 4, 1994</p>
<p>&#8220;With a tie-breaking vote by Vice President Al Gore, the Senate upheld today an Environmental Protection Agency rule requiring that ethanol and other renewable fuels get a share of the gasoline additives market. </p>
<p>The Senate voted 51-50 to table an amendment that would have denied financing to the agency to carry out a rule guaranteeing renewable fuels a 15 percent share of the lucrative fuel oxygenate market in 1995. That share rises to 30 percent in following years. </p>
<p>Under the Clean Air Act, oxygenates, which make fuel burn more cleanly, are to be added to gasoline in the nation&#8217;s smoggiest areas. </p>
<p>Tabling the amendment, offered by Democratic Senators Bennett J. Johnston of Louisiana and Bill Bradley of New Jersey, in effect kills it and clears the way for E.P.A. to carry out its program. </p>
<p>Farm state senators backed the agency&#8217;s renewable fuels rule as a way to increase demand for corn, the main ingredient in ethanol. </p>
<p>They also said it would keep the oil industry from locking out ethanol and creating a monopoly for methanol oxygenates made from fossil fuels. </p>
<p>But other senators said the rule would raise fuel prices, cost hundreds of millions of dollars in lost gas taxes and provide no environmental benefit over methanol oxygenates. </p>
<p>The rule&#8217;s critics also said it was a boon to the Archer Daniels Midland Company, a corn processing giant, which has more than 60 percent of the ethanol market. But supporters said new farmer cooperatives would get the added business and Archer Daniels&#8217; overall ethanol market share would shrink. Ethanol is the only widely produced renewable fuel. </p>
<p>The rule is to take effect Jan. 1, when the reformulated fuels program starts. </p>
<p>Two oil industry trade organizations, however, are suing the E.P.A. in Federal court to try to block the rule.&#8221;</p>
<p>End of article. </p>
<p> I would also like to have the figures of how much tractor fuel in needed in the production of the corn during planting, culivating, harvesting and transporting to the purchaser compared to how much ethanol is realized.  This argument would hold true also for any other farm product used in ethanol production&#8230;.farm products don&#8217;t just happen you know.<br />
Regarding Exxon&#8217;s profit&#8217;s, I just checked the market and they are paying 1.40 a share.  53% of their stock is held in funds that are the basis of 401k&#8217;s and IRA&#8217;s.  If you have either one you are a stockholder.  The profit figures seem obcene until you realize how many shareholders are involved.  The profit margin that is commonly bandied about, not only from the oil companies but from financial institutions with no bias, is 8% of their gross.  Hey folks, we&#8217;re not talking a mom and pop operation, they are BIG!</p>
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		<title>By: Nigel_Spumoni</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1736</link>
		<dc:creator>Nigel_Spumoni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 17:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1736</guid>
		<description>bullishfrog – myriad sources exist for plant-derived liquid fuels, such as switchgrass, sugar cane (see above), wood waste, urban waste, crop residues (corn stalks only). Plus algae, bacteria, etc. However, the hope for large-scale production is very slow, and certainly all sources have some downside. And, repeated studies show that burning plant materials is a much more efficient way to generate electricity (think Sweden), as compared to the inefficient conversion to ethanol. 
       
What we need to overcome is our wasteful fascination with liquid fuels, period. There is no miracle juice that will completely replace gasoline or diesel. All we can do is utilize what remains much more wisely. As I’ve expressed before, our only hope is to quickly transition into superefficient cars, trucks, planes, boats, and trains by using lighter materials (carbon fiber), improved tires, improved batteries, improved aerodynamics, etc. The good news is that much is happening on this front in the airline, semi-truck, and plug-in vehicle industries.

Imagine driving a plug-in hybrid vehicle, charged by rooftop solar and topped off with biodiesel brewed by a local out in Fruita. Suddenly you’ve more than tripled the efficiency of a typical passenger car, while leaving a few thousand barrels of crude in the ground and kept a few tons of carbon dioxide out of our shared atmosphere. 

We have all of these technologies at our fingertips and on the shelf, presently, as we speak. All it takes is an educated and committed citizenry to take charge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bullishfrog – myriad sources exist for plant-derived liquid fuels, such as switchgrass, sugar cane (see above), wood waste, urban waste, crop residues (corn stalks only). Plus algae, bacteria, etc. However, the hope for large-scale production is very slow, and certainly all sources have some downside. And, repeated studies show that burning plant materials is a much more efficient way to generate electricity (think Sweden), as compared to the inefficient conversion to ethanol. </p>
<p>What we need to overcome is our wasteful fascination with liquid fuels, period. There is no miracle juice that will completely replace gasoline or diesel. All we can do is utilize what remains much more wisely. As I’ve expressed before, our only hope is to quickly transition into superefficient cars, trucks, planes, boats, and trains by using lighter materials (carbon fiber), improved tires, improved batteries, improved aerodynamics, etc. The good news is that much is happening on this front in the airline, semi-truck, and plug-in vehicle industries.</p>
<p>Imagine driving a plug-in hybrid vehicle, charged by rooftop solar and topped off with biodiesel brewed by a local out in Fruita. Suddenly you’ve more than tripled the efficiency of a typical passenger car, while leaving a few thousand barrels of crude in the ground and kept a few tons of carbon dioxide out of our shared atmosphere. </p>
<p>We have all of these technologies at our fingertips and on the shelf, presently, as we speak. All it takes is an educated and committed citizenry to take charge.</p>
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		<title>By: toaaronuu</title>
		<link>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1735</link>
		<dc:creator>toaaronuu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 17:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://community.gjsentinel.com/2008/05/01/printed-letters-may-1-2008/#comment-1735</guid>
		<description>Of course they need the money, look how poorly Exxon did the last few months:  
---
 NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Record oil prices netted Exxon Mobil a $10.89 billion profit in the first three months of the year, sharply higher than a year earlier but short of Wall Street estimates and below what was needed to set a new all-time profit record.

The profit was still enough to be the second-highest U.S. corporate profit on record, falling just short of the record $11.66 billion Exxon Mobil (XOM, Fortune 500) earned in the prior quarter. The profit in that quarter came to $1,385 a second, enough to buy nearly 382 gallons of gas at current prices.

---</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course they need the money, look how poorly Exxon did the last few months:<br />
&#8212;<br />
 NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) &#8212; Record oil prices netted Exxon Mobil a $10.89 billion profit in the first three months of the year, sharply higher than a year earlier but short of Wall Street estimates and below what was needed to set a new all-time profit record.</p>
<p>The profit was still enough to be the second-highest U.S. corporate profit on record, falling just short of the record $11.66 billion Exxon Mobil (XOM, Fortune 500) earned in the prior quarter. The profit in that quarter came to $1,385 a second, enough to buy nearly 382 gallons of gas at current prices.</p>
<p>&#8212;</p>
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