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I do not believe that the U.S. government is really considering placing plague-carrying rodents, prairie dogs, on the endangered species list. What next, sewer rats? Or maybe termites but only after they invade and destroy a home. How about cockroaches?
I am more than willing to go out and capture a few thousand of these little critters and set them loose in their offices. Then they can see how cute and furry these little, diseased rodents are in real life.
TIM VRONAY
Clifton
115 Responses to “Plague-carrying rodents should not be on endangered species list”
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 11:21 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Tim, instead of trapping them and turning them loose in some bureaucrats office, why not trap them and sell them to the touchy-feely folks to save them from getting shot?
Maybe $200 a ‘pop’? More if the market will bear it.
Any unsold could be turned loose into a ‘baited area’ and sell tickets to set up and target practice?
It’s a win-win for everybody.
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 11:54 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Tim,
You just don’t get it. It’s not about prairie dogs, it’s not about furry little creatures, it is not about fleas, disease or the plague, it is about POWER. What do you suppose are the regulations that would go with listing prairie dogs as an endangered species? Perhaps anything that would place the “furry little critters” at risk, not only on public land, but also on private land. What would be prohibited? Irrigation (floods them out of the holes), mowing (disturbs nesting areas and decapitates them), plowing, grazing, burning of ditches, and/or construction of any kind. Basically, the listing would prohibit all human activity except the payment of property taxes. Think about the government grants and private foundation monies that would become available to the group that successfully put the prairie dog on the endangered species list. At the very mention of their name, farmers and ranchers would tremble. Hunters would run and hide. What do you know about the group that proposed the hunting ban? Why did the Daily Sentinel article include a large picture of Eric Rechel, of the Sierra Club, Uncompahgre group? Who is Eric Rechel and why did his phone # appear in the Daily Sentinel calendar as the contact # for Voice of Reason who conduct anti-war protests every week at 12th and North Ave, GJ, and have staged simultanious protests at that location with Justice for Immigrants, founded by Mark Harris (see recent DS artice and letter to the editor regarding lack of illegal labor)? The spokesman for Mr. Harris’s group is Mesa College Professor, Tom Aker. I could go on and on, with a half dozen other groups who share personnell and issues. The point is when you take the time and trouble, you will find there are about 23 people, in the Grand Valley, who are doing their best to limit your access to public lands, outlaw hunting one species at a time, eliminate our national borders, promote illegal immigration, disrupt the production of defensive products for our troops, stop production of oil and gas, etc. These people are a lot like the boom-boom vehicles that drive by your house. They drive by and disturb your life, and get away with it, because no one takes the time or trouble to find out who they are, how they are connected, or where and how they get their money. All that is necessary, Tim, for these people to win is for you, and all the other Tims, to do nothing. Thank you for speaking up!
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 11:57 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Why pick on prairie dogs? Humans carry AIDS, tuberculosis, polio, Asian flu,malaria, Dengue Fever and a host of other diseases. We don’t seem to have any compunction about turning these “diseased” critters loose in offices all over the country.
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 1:15 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Why would you compare humans to prairie dogs?
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 1:22 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
One.voice - you claim there are about 23 people in the Grand Valley who want to limit our access to public land, eliminate our borders, etc. I assume you know who these individuals are and can immediately provide a list(on this site) for those of us who are concerned about these matters so we can know who they are and challenge their positions.
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 1:53 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
one.voice that you for your post. You have summed up very well the perspective of the paranoiac. Well done, a perfect case study!
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 6:02 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Yes, WE have a list, and we have and do provide it to confirmed conservative groups such as, hunters, ATV groups, second amendment groups, petroleum producers, anti-illegal immigration groups, farmers and ranchers, outfitters, rock hunting groups, forestry products companies, public lands access advocacy groups, etc. And Yes, Proteus, photos and video are also available. One of the great benefits of being part of a group who have done the work, is the exclusive ownership and distribution rights. In other words, we decide. Have a nice day.
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 6:22 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
And if THE LIST determines you’re “naughty”, you get a lump of oil shale in your stocking. Or, Dick Cheney shoots you in the face.
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 6:36 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Jen wrote: “Why would you compare humans to prairie dogs?”
You seem to be missing the point. Some on this list justify the random killing of prairie dogs and their opposition to listing prairie dogs as endangered species on the basis that they carry disease (although it is the flea which is in fact the carrier). I am pointing out that other humans are far more likely to carry diseases which can be transmitted to the rest of us.
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 9:40 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
One.voice - Do you honestly believe the posters here are going to buy your nonsense? If you do, think again. Who is WE, and who is on your list? Without providing that information you and your group have no credibility here and are hereby invited to slither back into the primordial slime pool from whence you came.
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 10:05 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Proteus
We will be happy to consider you as a recipient of the list, if you will just post your name and mailing address.
I guess “we” is referring to the same “group” you refer to. DUH
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 10:24 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
One.voice - If you are unwilling to disclose your list on community.com, why not sent it to either Laurena Davis, Managing Editor or the Daily Sentinel, or Josh Nichols, Managing Editor of the Free Press. Include a note indicating they might find the list the basis for a sensational news story. You and your group get public kudos for doing “all the work” and the community is provided with valuable information. Go ahead, one.voice, stand up, be a man (or woman) and show us you’ve got the cajones (or vagina) to go public with your precious list.
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 10:29 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
So you really didn’t want to be considered. It is a credibility thing.
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 10:45 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
One.voice - Frankly, I could care less about your list, but the fact you’re using as “bait” a la Roy Cohen during the “Red Baiting” hearings of half a century ago bugs the hell out of me. And besides, I’ve been shooting prairie dogs since I was 12 years old growing up in Texas during the 1950’s. I can remember my first kill (using .220 Swift), very clearly, and distinctly recall hearing a pathetic “squeek” as my bullet tore through a big male as he was being catapulted off the top of the mound. Man, did that feel good!
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 7:23 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Proteus,
We forwarded your request to our executive committee. It was determined that due to the nature of the language used, and exhibiting evidence of instability, that you do not qualify to be considered for a copy of the list, and we must terminate this conversation. Good luck with that Karma.
Sorry.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 8:02 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
One.voice - For the life of me I can’t understand why you and your group are so reluctant to release this list (if it actually exists, that is) to the media for public review. During the disgraceful HUAC and Senate hearings (chaired by the infamous Republican Senator Joseph McCarthy) during the paranoid anti-communist hysteria of the mid-1950’s, chief staff attorney Roy Cohen would periodically hold up a briefcase he claimed contained a list of government employees who were communist spies. When challenged to open the briefcase, Cohen would continually refuse - thereby destroying his credibility and that of Sen. McCarthy. You and your group face the same dilemma. You say you have a list containing the names of 23 people who are, in your opinion, attempting to destroy everything you hold dear. You even contend that some of these people are trying to disrupt the production of defensive equipment needed by our gallant troops, which would make these people de facto traitors. By refusing to produce the list, you have assumed the role of Roy Cohen, and are in danger of destroying any credibility you and/or your secret group may possess. It’s time to “open the briefcase,” don’t you think?
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 8:38 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
THE LIST is not in some briefcase, foolish liberal whineypants-man! In reality, THE LIST is a bunch of scribblings on a legal pad, kept in a Theodore Kaczynski-esque shack behind the Sonic Drive-In in Clifton. Look under the picture of J. Edgar Hoover. No, not the one in the evening gown…the other one.
All the ominous “VE HAFF A LIST, YA?” mumblings and the “Yeah, I’ve got it, but I’m not gonna show it to you, so THERE!” postures are reminiscent of Cohn, indeed. You know, he could tell you, but then he’d have to kill you.
You just made THE LIST, Proteus.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 9:20 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
I have been following this thread and I do believe there is a list. There has been a lot of information, including names (both people and groups) and sources that appear to have come from this group. You might check out the posts re: harassment of pedophile (DS) in Battlement Mesa area. Also there were posts in the FP re; one of their reporters and a photo of same demonstrating with one of the anti-war groups mentioned. It named names and offered a photo. Also posts to the decision from DOW re; prairie dog hunting ban named names and verifiable sources(like the DS calender). According to another post, the defense contractor targeted by these groups was CAPCO, in GJ. It would be interesting to see the list though.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 9:35 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Proteus, we disagree on some things, agree on others, and sometimes you actually come to the correct conclusion.
And then you said this:
” I can remember my first kill (using .220 Swift), very clearly, and distinctly recall hearing a pathetic “squeek” as my bullet tore through a big male as he was being catapulted off the top of the mound. ”
That raises a credibility issue.
How close were you to the “big male prairie dog”?
I have shot a large number of the little critters in my life, mostly with a common old .22 long rifle, and I have never been close enough to hear the “pathetic squeak”.
Maybe it’s just the way were raised is different.
I was taught a good, clean, head shot was always the quickest and most humane.
The theory behind that was, “if you’re going to kill something, kill it, don’t make it suffer.
That’s why I never go for a heart or lung shot on big game.
The training on long distance shots when I was young made me an excellent shot, so I don’t need the bigger target of the body.
Did you get into trouble for shooting the zoo animal?
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 9:45 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Wow.
A pissing contest over who’s the better (or more experienced, or more humane, or more credible) Prairie Dog Hunter.
Now, I’ve seen everything.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 10:23 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
It’s a “guy thing”.
You wouldn’t understand.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 10:33 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Yes, yes, Willis…you type like a real man. Duly noted.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 10:35 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
And you read like a grumpy old coot with no sense of humor.
Lighten up and see the grin.
Grouch.
Life is too much fun to be in less than a good mood.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 11:12 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
OneVoice. Can I apply to be on your list? Associating with people who protest the war, who argue for justice for immigrants, and who are against the despoilation of our natural resources seems like a pretty good thing to this unaffiliated voter. (take your own advice and lighten up WLJ).
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 11:48 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
it’s ok Gene.
My life is always mellow because I don’t go through life hating everything I don’t agree with.
It’s a live and let live thing.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 11:51 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
See how he used your real name, there, Class? That’s supposed to scare ya.
‘Cause you had the guts to link your real name with your screen name, and he won’t let you forget that He Knows Who You Are Really….
But really, he’s just a fun-loving, live and let live kinda guy.
Really.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 12:06 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
More of a courtesy and respect thing.
Posters refer to me as Willis on a regular basis.
I assume for the same reasons.
I do not need to resort to intimidation or any other type of ‘fear’ tactic.
Why is it that you keep trying to convince others of my intentions when you have no clue about my thought processes?
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 12:30 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
The silence of one.voice for most of the morning would seem to add to a mounting body of evidence that, other than the news reports of various activities reported by Bret, the infamous LIST does not exist and that one.voice is simply trying to “blow smoke” up our collective posteriors. If I were his parents I would banish him from the dinner table and send him off to bed for foolishly attempting to insult the intelligence of the grownups at the table.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 12:38 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Actually I rather dislike it when a receptionist one third my age who does not know me at all addresses me by my first name. In contrast to what Mr. Johnson writes, I regard this as a lack of courtesy and respect. My first name is for my friends and close associates.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 1:42 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
One.voice, oh, one.voice, where art thou? Your silence is deafening. At this defining (American Patriot loves definitions) moment in your in your career as a poster on this site, you might want to ponder the old saying, “Son, if you want to run with the Big Dogs, you gotta learn to pee in the high weeds.” For you, one.voice, this means that if you want to run with us, now is the time to PRODUCE THE LIST. We await your answer with great anticipation and baited breath.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 6:49 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Oh, no….He was right about the list…He was right all along! The people on the list, they came and GOT HIM!!
Soylent green is people!!
….PEOPLE!!!
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 8:23 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
One voice, If you are legit, and there is a list, I have a question. How can I get your list without posting my name and address here? My girlfriend and I ride ATV’s. We met another couple last weekend who said that a group called Western Congress is responsible for trying to shut down access to the trails we like to ride on. Is this group on your list?
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 8:55 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Bret: Last I heard Western Congress is a conservative group not likely to be on the list. As I understand it many hunters who adhere to the old ways of silently stalking deer and elk for many hours to get in a good shot, are incensed at the noisy ATV riders who come roaring up spoiling their stalk. They are talking about banning ATVs during hunting season, especially since so many ATV riders ignore posted trails and illegaly ride all over the countryside. The BLM has a web site where they point out some of the disadvantages of ATVs during hunting season. http://www.blm.gov/co/st/en/fo/gfo/recreation_information/atvethic.html
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 9:08 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Bret,
I am sure that you can appreciate our need to protect sources and methods. We will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are legit, and to the extent we can without compromising these sources and methods, we will share the following information with you. If you ride in the Dominguez Canyon area, we believe that you have the name of your subject group wrong. Try Western Colorado Congress. Western Colorado Congress is headed by William (Bill) E. Grant, AKA, William E. Crowell.(Check GJ phone book, same phone number as Cladia Beth Crowell, Development Director of Western Colorado Congress. Their secretary is Peter Crowell. Apparently a family affair. Other areas that may be of interest to you, Koinonia Church web site and links. (The Pastor is Michael Burr). Sierra Club, Uncompahgre Group web site and notice the association with Sheep Mountain Alliance, and the name Chuck Burr (?), the Gill Foundation web site, Western Equity.org., are Contributors and Man-Reach, who lists as it’s contact one Jeff Bassinger. Check the Club 20 membership list. Friends of Uncompahgre, (Elizabeth Roscoe), One Community and Telluride Trust. Look for Associations. Follow the money. We hope this small bit of information will be of some use to you, and if in you search you come across info you feel would be of interest to us, please reply in a post.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 9:32 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
OMG, THANKS. I must have been wrong about the name.
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 10:48 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
one.voice - I need your help. I’ve been contacted by a group called Progressive Patriots For Truth, Justice and the American Way based in the Peoples Republic of Boulder asking for my help in compiling a list of 23 subversive Grand Valley individuals and/or groups who advocate that our country resign its membership in the United Nations and renounce the forward-thinking concept of one-world government. I know that Dean Van Gundy (of junkyard fame) and the Fruita Chapter of the John Birch Society hold these positions, and I’m pretty sure former Grand Junction Mayor and prominent Christian fundamentalist Reford Theobold feels the same way, but after that I’m running short of names primarily because I don’t hang around with you people (right-wingers)that much. Can you help me fill out my list? The best candidates would be people who think as you do but who you hold a grudge against. When my list reaches 23 names, I give you my sacred word as a dues paying member of the ACLU (true statement)that I will release the list to the local media and publish it on this forum. Come on, be a pal, help a fellow poster out.
By the way, the Western Colorado Congress (of which I happen to be a member) is an apolitical, middle-of-the-road non-profit organization of citizens concerned with maintaining a reasonable balance between the various interests who use our land, water and air. They’re about as far from a radical organization as you can get.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 6:47 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Bret - here we’ve been thinking one.voices “list” was somehow significant, and it turns out to be made up of readily available information. All of the information he related to you in #34 is available by reading the newspaper, watching a little local television, picking up a few brochures and looking up some names in the GJ phone book. Everyone he mentions (Bill Grant, Claudia Crowell, Pastor Mike Burr, etc) are all highly respected members of the community and all possess stellar reputations. one.voices “list” is a bust and not worth bothering with.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 10:26 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
So, THE LIST turns out to be pretty innocuous. I have a feeling the largest of the entities who’ve received THE LIST are well aware of anyone they believe might be a threat to their interests; after all, they have the resources to defend their interests.
But, to be fair, he posted it, so we can’t accuse him of not being forthcoming about it anymore.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 11:04 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Curmudgeon-I agree, we should be charitable and give one.voice credit where credit is due even if his list is functionally worthless.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 11:04 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
I don’t usually post, but my curiosity got the best of me. Why did Bill Grant of Western Colorado Congress change his name? Proteus said all the info was in the newspapers and on TV, but I honestly don‘t remember reading about it. Proteus, since you are a member, can you tell us why the name change or where I can find the news articles about it?
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 11:12 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Normally, name changes are posted in the Legal Notices section of the Classified Ads, as it’s a matter of public record. As to why, I wouldn’t have a clue.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 11:13 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Sassy-Bill Grant has always been Bill Grant. There has never been a name change. One.voices list contains some seriously inaccurate information. These kinds of mistakes happen when rank amateurs get in over their collective incompetent heads.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 11:30 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
How about counting to 23. The info posted was not a list of any kind. It was simply info, most of which is available in public records. That info was given in answer to a request, and it was specific info, which we felt, as stated, might be of assistance to the person asking the question. Without a doubt, errors can and do occur in a database. When we receive info that there is in error, we do our utmost to correct the info. If you have info, we would be happy to receive and evaluate it. Thus far, all we have seen in speculation. You have looked at a tiny piece and for some reason you think it is the whole.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 12:00 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
One.voice-If your purported list contains as many factual errors as the “information” you posted for Bret, you and your cohorts have a serious problem. So far, you have not offered us any credible proof that a “list” of 23 local subversive, liberal, commie-pinko traitors bent on destroying your “redneck nation” way of life even exists. Unless and until you can provide us with proof positive (via publication) that such a list exists, it’s time for you to go away and not bother us anymore. Publish or perish.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 12:18 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
To the contrary, I think one.voice’s LIST does exist, and in his mind, the people on it are genuine threats to the freedoms/organizations he names. The ( mistaken?) impression that Bill Grant had undergone a name change, for whatever reason, is shared by more than one person, apparently (Unless one.voice has a ’sassy’ side to his personality we haven’t seen before).
But the fact remains, he thinks the people on THE LIST are a threat. And releasing too much about what he knows would be threatening to him, as well.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 12:35 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Like I said, speculation. Factual errors, give me all you got. Actually going away is not a bad idea. You certainly don’t have anything to offer except speculation.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 12:45 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
One.voice - you are the one engaging in speculation (as to the existence of the list), not us. Let’s face it, you’ve failed the test to run with the “Big Dogs.” Around this site, you’ve got to “show some beef” or get cut from the herd.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 12:59 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Curmudgeon - we’ll have to agree to disagree regarding the existence of the “list.” However, you may be correct in the assessment that one.voice could be in danger from his own people if he reveals too much about the “Grand Valley 23.” These old-time hardcore rednecks can get pretty nasty when they get liquored up on too many Bud Lights at the VFW hall.I have it on good authority that the Fruita chapter of the John Birch Society does contract assassinations at very reasonable rates. Supposedly, the “kneecap” their victims (a la the Irish Republican Army), toss them into a rusted-out 1978 Chevy pickup, transfer them to dirty, smelly ATV’s and take them up to the Black Mountain toxic waste dump for final disposal. I can understand why one.voice might be reluctant to give us the information that,in his heart is the right thing to do.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 1:17 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Hey, now, I’ll thank you to leave the Irish out of this.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 1:26 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
And, honestly, if it weren’t for the folks at the VFW, we wouldn’t be free to type this crap, now, would we?
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 3:38 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Curmudgeon-the guys from WWII kept us free; Korea was a draw (technically, were still at war with North Korea); we lost in Vietnam; and we’re losing in Iraq.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 4:40 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Proteus, I agree wholeheartedly with your characterizations of those wars….just not your cavalier attitude towards the people who actually fought them.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 5:17 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Proteus
I honestly wanted an answer, so I went on a fishing expedition and came up with the following at USA People Search. William E Crowell, Grand Junction CO 81501, shown are Associated names: William E Grant (both the same age) both assoc with the same lady with the last name Crowell. I find that Interesting to say the least.Maybe you do not know everything you should about the people you associate with ? Or are you just blowing smoke?
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 5:25 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
As for your condensending remarks about our Veterens, I am married to one of those Vietnam Vets. Yes, a few of our boys came back from that hell with problems, yes some do drink. But your assumption that all VFW members are drunks just shows your ignorance and how intolerant you are of those who were injured while trying to protect our country and our freedoms.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 5:45 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Sassy,
I understand your desire for an answer. Yes we were aware of People Search info when we answered Bret’s request for info. What you may not have considered was that people like Proteus give us a lot of information when they are blowing smoke. We have learned to just let them rave on and pick out the little jewels.
It is important that people try to find the truth for themselves. Whatever your issue, do your homework. Try to be a good listener, and you will find the truth, and sometimes you even get a good chuckle. I really like that big dog thing. If we can be of help to you please let us know.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 8:41 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
OH GOODY!!!
We get to play “technically speaking”….
” Proteus
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 3:38 pm PM This User Report this comment
Curmudgeon-the guys from WWII kept us free; Korea was a draw (technically, were still at war with North Korea); we lost in Vietnam; and we’re losing in Iraq. ”
Well, technically speaking, Korea was a “police action” ran by the rules the UNITED NATIONS gave us to play with.
So, it is a non-counter in the win/loss columns.
We did not “lose” Vietnam.
A mainstream, media with a very hostile “anti-American” agenda force fed the American People what the powers in the media wanted the American People to believe.
We pulled our troops out, under hostile enemy fire, when the democrat controlled congress with enough vote to over ride any veto canceled funding for the military in Southeast Asia.
So, our military did not lose in Vietnam.
The democrats in congress surrendered by defunding the war, and letting the North Vietnamese communist army overrun the South before we were able to withdraw in a safe, coherent operation.
One more time, in case somebody missed it again.
THE DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS LOST THE WAR IN VIETNAM!
Any problems that may arise, it is all historical fact.
No I know that there are some who will choose to think about whether or not they want to believe this, instead of doing a little simple research on their own, but FACTS are still FACTS.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 9:01 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Now Willis, you know whatever Proteus has to say doesn’t necessarily have any basis in fact. He does it for the same reason a big dog licks himself, because he can and if feels good.
As for the scenario you presented, the Dem’s’ counted Vietnam as a victory for their side, and they are going for part deux in the middle east right now. Why, because they can and it feels good.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 9:21 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
I know how proteus thinks.
It’s all the republicans fault but never the democrats fault.
I brought up the details on all the damage clintoon did to the military during his 8 years, and the wailing and gnashing of teeth was truly a pleasure to watch.
One of the criers even suggested that “facts” were nothing more than “your opinion”, and that was it!
Why is it that you will never see a happy liberal?
To a man(or woman) liberals hate what this country is, and they’re mad that people like me stand in the road of their turning this into a ‘nice’ country.
Cuba still has places to rent, all they need to do is go live there for a few months, and this place will seem a whole lot nicer.
But actually finding out what they want in the real world is too much trouble.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 9:36 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Because it is easier to destruct that to construct. Because they have never figured out that if you hate everything, it tends to be a downer. People who oppose everything constructive have a great deal of trouble convincing any one they are constructive. Because, with them, there is no such thing as halfway. It’s all or nothing, and they are just as happy with nothing, because in their mind it proves that everyone is conspiring against them, just like they said. Trying to get a liberal to laugh, or have fun is like pulling Elephant teeth. You don’t want to be at either end when it happens. That’s why I am a Republican by choice and a Conservative by the grace of God.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 10:04 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Where oh where is the Greek God, Proteus? Hiding in the short weeds, or under the porch with the puppies? You were so publicly busted.
I hear the Fruita Chapter of the John Birch Society is driving around town in a “rusted out 1978 Chevy Pickup” with a smelly ATV in the back looking for someone who said bad things about them.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 11:23 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Well, I have been following this thread for some time and I do get a chuckle from time to time. I also get kind of angry and, until now, I remained silent. No more silence from me, and here is why.
Proteus, I was there in Vietnam in 1968 during the TET offensive. I was 20 years old, afraid for my life and, when sitting in a hole in the ground, or maybe a sandbag bunker, under the dark of night thinking you were going to die any moment, it would have been nice to think that you, Proteus, were pulling for me. I was there because I felt it important to help bring democracy to South Vietnam. Regardless of the results, do not ever tell me, or anyone else who served his country in combat, that we are redneck drunks sitting around the bar at the local VFW. (however, I do happen to own a 1978 Chevy pickup, rusted badly. Do you want to see it?) I saw good men (kids really) die horribly. About the 58,000+ men and women who died there; according to you, they all died in vain. You sir, hit a large nerve there and you owe these veterans and their families a very heartfelt apology. I glean from your story of the “squealing” prairie dog kill, that you were too young for Korea, and too old for Vietnam. I also glean you are OK with our military as long as we win. During the Bataan Death March in W.W.II I wonder what people like you thought of that? Were your mentors happy about that? Is that how you learned to hate our military? Do you really get your kicks at our so called losses? (You must have lost a lot of games as a youngster.)
Now, I will tell you why we left Vietnam. (not lost as you say) It was due to wimp stay at home guys like yourself and, college kids who were given extra credits as part of their professors’ own agendas to “protest” our presence in Southeast Asia and, our politicians, fearing being blamed and not reelected, caused us to make a “truce.” We did not lose Korea, or Vietnam. We could have, and would have won both handily, if our politicians would have allowed it. Lastly, here is one fact that is verifiable if you wish to put forth the effort; the US Military NEVER lost a battle with the North Vietnamese Army. Period.
I expect to see your apology posted here soon, sir!
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 11:26 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
WLJ wrote: “One more time, in case somebody missed it again.”
“THE DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS LOST THE WAR IN VIETNAM!”
You got that wrong, Mr Johnson. The American people through their elected representatives finally concluded that we had no business in Vietnam. What is it about representative government in a Republic such as ours that you do not understand? The American public as shown by every poll in the last two years has come to a similar conclusion about Iraq. And you will, before long, notice that we will speak through our (newly) elected representatives in a similar manner about this obscene war.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 11:31 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
One more thing before I go. Willis seems to make more sense than I could ever do. Thank you Mr. Willis.
This country needs millions of Mr. Willis’.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 11:35 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Onevoice wrote: “Trying to get a liberal to laugh, or have fun is like pulling Elephant teeth.”
The liberals I know seem to have plenty of fun tweaking the noses of conservatives, like the person who walked down Main street through all the farmer’s markets last summer with a big smile on his face and wearing a tShirt which said: “Don’t blame me, I voted for Kerry” The liberals were having a lot of laughs over this and the conservatives were all grim faced or making rude comments.
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 11:46 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
American: You apparently do not understand that one can support the men in the military all the way yet be opposed to the war. I come from a military family and have had relatives serve and die in every major war this country has fought right back to the Revolutionary war. This includes a twin of my great grandfather killed at Antietam fighting for the North, An Uncle in Europe in WWII, a cousin at Tarawa and a nephew in Vietnam. Yet as an American I have a higher duty to oppose the actions of our government when they commit atrocities such as the Vietnam and Iraq wars, even though I have a deep committment to the men who serve.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 2:34 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
I have a friend who is an American history teacher at a University in Mississippi. His goal is to earn a Ph.D. in Southeast Asian Military Tactics and his dissertation is being prepared with the Vietnam war as background subject. (He will probably soon be a teacher at a military academy). He is an expert in his field of study. I complained to him about recent comments here in Colorado and sent him a copy of the discussion.(he stated to keep him out of this discussion as it could affect his studies,so he will remain anonymous)
It should be obvious to you all that I, american, am not an educator. However, some of us do need an education concerning the wars we were in, are in now, and surely will be in, in the future.
I ask of classof52; How can you be “for” the fighting man, but “against” his fight? For the military, but against what the military stands for?
Have you personally ever been at war? I think the answer is NO. If indeed you are from the class of 1952 then you too, like Proteus, are too young for Korea, and too old for Vietnam. What we call a tweener. I think you feel you can have cake, and eat it. Not being a smart butt here, just trying to make a point. If we are at war, we, as a people, must stand up for our military boys and gals and the goals set by their commanders. We do things in combat we would never do purposely. Guns and bombs have no eyes and stray rounds explode where they were not meant to be. What can be done about it? Nothing is the short answer. If I shoot at you and miss, where does the bullet go? Maybe into the body of a 12 year old? Is that an atrocity? Is it an accident? A 2000 pound bomb strays 200 yards off target. No one actually wanted this to happen, some guy made a miscaculation in his aiming, not purposely, it just happened. He CANNOT take it back. It falls on a school with 500 children at their lessons. 67 die and 145 are wounded, some severely. Is that an atrocity? Is it an accident?
There ARE a few genuine atrocities that happen in war. A squad witnesses the death of two of their buddies. The suspects are seen going into a small village. The squad leader calls in an air strike on the village, and all are killed. THAT is an atrocity. A soldier decides to kill a suspected enemy without questioning beforehand. THAT is an atrocity. A group of soldiers rape and kill three school girls taken from a village. THAT is an atrocity. A squad of combat troops burns a village because they just feel mean today. THAT is an atrocity. In time of war, things happen that cannot be taken back. We feel deep sorrow it happened. Families are torn apart, buildings destroyed, lives lost and, none were planned, none were meant to be, but mistakes happen in the heat of battle and, unless you were there, you have no idea of what you speak. Period. I as a combat veteran will tell you that if I could, I would put everyone who commited an atrocity in prison, at hard labor, until they die. Period. “I” can pass that sentence because I know. I was there. I saw things that disturbed me terribly. I was involved in killing a 12 year old boy, “not” by accident. He held an AK47 pointed at us. What could we do? 12 year olds were actually combat veterans for the VC. He was going to kill unless we acted. Do you think for a minute I have forgotten that incident? Never! When an individual without combat experience passes judgment on an entire military mission. THAT is an atrocity.
Please read on; I received this from the teacher.
General VoNguyen Giap.
General Giap was a brilliant, highly respected leader of the North Vietnam military. The following quote is from his memoirs currently found in the
Vietnam war memorial in Hanoi: ‘What we still don’t understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready
to surrender! It was the same at the battles of TET. You defeated us!
We knew it, and we thought you knew it.
But we were elated to notice your media was definitely helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could in the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won! General Giap has published his memoirs and confirmed what most Americans knew. The Vietnam war was not lost in Vietnam — it was lost at home. The exact same slippery slope, sponsored by the US media, is currently well underway. It exposes the
enormous power of a Biased Media to cut out the heart and will of the American public.
A truism worthy of note: … Do not fear the enemy, for they can take only your life. Fear the media far more, for they will destroy your honor.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 6:59 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
American,
I thought you said it just fine, but you misspelled wean er, it is spelled with a W.(ha) Kind of adds a whole new meaning to the class of 65 doesn’t it proteus, but you know I just love Democrats. It’s their mission that I hate. Yeah, right.
I have more respect for 25th NVA General Giap and his little people. At least they had the guts to take a side. The Democrats just take cheap shots.
Dissent in time of war, with troops in the field, is not patriotic, it is cowardice
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 7:23 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Golly Gene…
oh wait, I held out an olive branch of peace and friendship and you blasted it with a spurt of venom, thereby setting the tone of our relationship…
So be it.
” Classof52
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 11:26 pm PM This User Report this comment
WLJ wrote: “One more time, in case somebody missed it again.”
“THE DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS LOST THE WAR IN VIETNAM!”
You got that wrong, Mr Johnson. The American people through their elected representatives finally concluded that we had no business in Vietnam. What is it about representative government in a Republic such as ours that you do not understand? The American public as shown by every poll in the last two years has come to a similar conclusion about Iraq. And you will, before long, notice that we will speak through our (newly) elected representatives in a similar manner about this obscene war. ”
Now mr fawks, you are speaking to an audience that a large percentage of which has never seen their congress critter actually ‘represent’ their wishes.
So, while you may not be completely untruthful, you did put forward a highly suspicious thought.
I stand by my comments, the media, and the democrats in congress lost Vietnam through cowardice and political agenda that is provable HATE AMERICA FIRST.
They are doing exactly the same thing now in Iraq, using exactly the same tactics.
Now that that’s said….
who changed the topic again?
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 7:29 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
class of 52, I am sure that you have heard the saying “figures don’t lie, but liars figure”. This sums up all polls. If you want the poll to come out a certain way you just word your question to insure that it does. Have you ever had one of those “poll takers” call you?
The question is something like “Have you stopped beating your wife?” There is either no way to answer it or the answer will only reflect the result they want.
Support our Troops, all the time. Remember, “All sacrificed some, some sacrificed all”. And that conclusion didn’t come from a poll. When we have completed our mission, and our military is safe on our shores, you can debate your issue till you are blue in the face, I don’t care, but for now, our troops, their morale and our mission are all that matters. It is our duty to support the ones who give us the right to speak our mind. You know, “if you can read, thank a teacher, if you can read in English, thank a Soldier”.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 7:42 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis,
Thanks for the info. Now, that’s what I’m talking about. These are the little jewels I was referring to. Keep those cards and letters rolling in. Just remember, you are helping to make some people famous.
GOD, I LOVE THIS COUNTRY!!!!!
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 8:12 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Mr Fox,
” Classof52
Posted May 11th, 2008 at 11:46 pm PM This User Report this comment
American: You apparently do not understand that one can support the men in the military all the way yet be opposed to the war. I come from a military family and have had relatives serve and die in every major war this country has fought right back to the Revolutionary war. This includes a twin of my great grandfather killed at Antietam fighting for the North, An Uncle in Europe in WWII, a cousin at Tarawa and a nephew in Vietnam. Yet as an American I have a higher duty to oppose the actions of our government when they commit atrocities such as the Vietnam and Iraq wars, even though I have a deep committment to the men who serve. ”
OK, you support the troops, exactly how?
By voting for democrats?
From a much earlier post on this site;
” How democrats support the military.
In the 1980’s, there were 18 active duty divisions in the U.S.Army.
After 8 years of Clinton there are only 10 divisions.
In the ‘80s there were 569 Warships in the U.S.Navy.
After 8 years of Clinton there are only 276.
In the ‘80’s there were 37 active duty tactical Air Wings.
After 8 years of Clinton there are 20.
So, by voting democratic you supported the troops by gutting the military, slashed spending on personnel and equipment.
If there is not enough body armor, or vehicle armor to go around to protect the few troops we have left, don’t blame Bush, look in the mirror.
If China bothers you, don’t let it. Clinton changed the rules protecting the missile launch technology to “accidentally allow” that technology to fall into the hands of the Chinese military shortly after receiving campaign donations from people with very strong ties to the same Chinese military machine.
That’s what you voted for, right? ”
So, please, for the sake of the MEN and WOMEN SERVING our nation, stop supporting them as you have in the past.
It only gets them killed.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 8:28 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis, et al - You say we didn’t “lose” Vietnam. If we didn’t lose the war, why is Siagon now known as Ho Chi Minh City, Hanoi is the capital of Vietnam, and thousands of former South Vietnam soldiers (and their families)were executed or died in “reeducation” camps. Some victory!
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 8:33 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Sassy- Let’s put this name thing to rest forever. William E.Grant is married to Claudia Crowell. Claudia elected to retain her maiden name when they were wed many years ago. Claudia is not related to anyone in GJ or the State of Colorado with her last name. Any information to the contrary is erroneous, regardless of the source. Enough already! I have no idea who William E. Crowell is. Why not call him and find out?
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 8:35 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Proteus,
It’s a name change thing, don’t mean a thing.
It’s not about WHAT happened, it’s about WHO caused it.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 8:38 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Alas, it comes to pass that proteus missed reading post #56, other wise he would not have posted this;
” # Proteus
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 8:28 am PM This User Report this comment
Willis, et al - You say we didn’t “lose” Vietnam. If we didn’t lose the war, why is Siagon now known as Ho Chi Minh City, Hanoi is the capital of Vietnam, and thousands of former South Vietnam soldiers (and their families)were executed or died in “reeducation” camps. Some victory! ”
And it was not “thousands of former South Vietnam soldiers”
It was millions of people throughout all of Southeast Asia that were slaughtered by regimes like Pol Pot and others that exterminated their political opponents, their families, and friends and neighbors, just to make sure no challenge to their authority could ever be questioned.
The democrats in congress were fully informed of the consequences of cutting the funding and running away, but the lives of those millions of people were irrelevant to their political posturing.
So, if you voted for a democrat prior to that time, you helped cause those deaths.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 8:42 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Proteus,
Are you saying that USA People Search is not a credible source? Interesting. You made a big deal of this as a factual error. Why not admit that you were totally, irrevocably wrong? I think your credibility is what got laid to rest.
It is my opinion that women who retain their maiden names don’t have much respect for the man they married. HUH!!
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:03 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Proteus is absolutely correct about Bill Grant and Claudia Crowell. I’ve know them for years. USA People Search is full of errors.
‘It is my opinion that women who retain their maiden names don’t have much respect for the man they married.’ In this instance your opinion is totally wrong.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:09 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
from class:Classof52
Posted May 10th, 2008 at 8:55 pm PM This User Report this comment
Bret: Last I heard Western Congress is a conservative group not likely to be on the list. As I understand it many hunters who adhere to the old ways of silently stalking deer and elk for many hours to get in a good shot, are incensed at the noisy ATV riders who come roaring up spoiling their stalk. They are talking about banning ATVs during hunting season, especially since so many ATV riders ignore posted trails and illegaly ride all over the countryside. The BLM has a web site where they point out some of the disadvantages of ATVs during hunting season. http://www.blm.gov/co/st/en/fo/gfo/recreation_information/atvethic.html
this is a true statement…i’ve had many occasions where i’ve lined up a clean shot, only to have the game skeered off by some dipwad on an atv screaming down a valley….
to american re post #66:
i thank you for your service, sir….my father had 3 tours of duty in viet nam, and i have many friends that are vets of that war…you speak truly sir, in your assumptions that the war was lost due to reactionaries in this country at that time.
now about the original post, prairie dogs are pests, just like rats and mice, only bigger…you wanna ban traps as well?
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:15 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis-If you take the time to research the vote on the resolution to defund the war, (available on the net) you will find that a majority of Democrats AND Republicans then in Congress voted in favor of the resolution. By doing so, they were expressing the clear will of the American people, who had turned against our ill-conceived adventure in SE Asia several years before. You need to come to grips with the conclusion of virtually all of the major historians that Vietnam was the wrong war at the wrong time in the wrong place fought for the wrong reasons.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:23 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Proteus
Why is it that only “your” net sources are credible.
And as to your post #79, what about the memoirs of the North Vietnamese General, referred to in post 66? Or is that just another “incredible source”?
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:26 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Actually proteus,
The ‘war’ was fought by morons in the white house and the halls of congress setting stupid ‘rules of engagement’ designed to protect the enemy from any danger from US Military.
Had there been anybody with a brain in the white house in 1964, that particular little skirmish would have been over and done with in less than a year.
But we had johnson, backed up by macnamara.
Probably the two stupidest people ever to walk the floors in the white house.
Neither had any clue as to the use of, or the capabilities of, the military.
The biggest problem was the political leanings of the ruling class in Hanoi at the time.
Full blown communists, and johnson really hated the thought of picking on his best friends.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:28 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Grandmasix-There is a practical reason why many women do not adopt their husband’s name upon marriage. In the modern world, many women already have established professional careers when they marry. Changing names at that point can be very confusing in the business world. As far as respect goes, many “modern” couples show mutual respect by combining their last names, such as Bob Smith-Jones and Jane Smith-Jones. For many “modern” women, automatically adopting their husband’s last name is perceived as relegating them to a subservient role in the relationship, something which they rightly refuse to do (this is a big deal with the Christian fundamentalists, whose marriage vows specifically order the woman to obey her husband in all things-a disgusting and disrespectful concept).
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:28 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Hey, how about everyone getting back on topic. I need more info on William E. Crowell, or his maiden name, William E. Grant. If Mrs. Crowell is not related to anyone in Co, as Proteus said, where are her relatives? Come on, give me a little help here Eugene? Jewels, jewels, jewels.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:33 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Proteus
We are still waiting for your apology to the Veterens!!
Yawn! I think I am getting bored with the name change issue. Proteus, life must be rough for someone who thinks he alway right regardless of the evidence produced.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:34 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Wilis-Read your history, it was Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower who initially obligated the USA to a role in Vietnam, and it was Nixon (and Kissinger)who dragged his feet at the Paris Peace Accords for five years, causing the needless deaths of thousands of our troops.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:38 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Proteus,
I know this will come as a shock to you, but I do understand why women use the name they are in business with to continue said business. However, women like Hilary Rodham Clinton, have taken their husbands name also. So like I said, it is a sign of respect. The DEX is a great place to show who is the most important in this house.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:42 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Sassy-What do I have to apologize for? I never stated or implied that everyone who frequents the VFW Bar and Grill is a drunk, but you must admit that copious amounts of various adult beverages are consumed on the premises while a bunch of old men swap stories about the most exciting time in their otherwise mundane lives.
Heck, I’m a Vietnam-era veteran myself. I say “Vietnam-era” because, in their wisdom (and some creative manipulation), the military never assigned me to an overseas post during my service in the 1960’s. My momma didn’t raise no dummy!
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:42 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Lemmeseeherenow.
Eisenhower first sent in ‘military advisors’ in a non-combat role.
Kennedy sorta left the status stand.
johnson committed troops to a combat status.
There never should have been a ‘paris peace accords’.
Had johnson and his little toady- the former chairman for ford motor company - not chosen to play war, it never would have become any type of problem.
But johnson needed to do something to make hisself feel better and create a legacy for the historians to gloat over.
Learn you history proteus.
And, furthermore.
Todd and crew set up a “FORUMS” section specifically for ‘discussions’ such as this.
I even set up a topic for all the liberals to use to say anything bad about me they wanted.
No takers because, apparently, liberals cannot understand the concept of switching to the other page.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:47 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Oh proteus, I think you stepped into a big pile with this one;
” Heck, I’m a Vietnam-era veteran myself. I say “Vietnam-era” because, in their wisdom (and some creative manipulation), the military never assigned me to an overseas post during my service in the 1960’s. My momma didn’t raise no dummy! ”
According to that statement, you think that those who did go to Vietnam are “dummies”.
Poor form little buddy.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 9:49 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
American - just for the record, I served in the Unites States Marine Corp from 1964-1970 (3 years active, 3 years active reserve). Semper Fi!
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 10:00 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis-All those who went to Vietnam weren’t dummies, they were victims - I decided not to be one of them so I made sure I became an instructor (instructors generally stay in the rear areas or stateside attempting to teach the ‘victims’ how to do their jobs and hopefully stay alive).
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 10:10 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Grandmasik wrote: “class of 52, I am sure that you have heard the saying “figures don’t lie, but liars figure”. This sums up all polls. If you want the poll to come out a certain way you just word your question to insure that it does. Have you ever had one of those “poll takers” call you?”
The only people who make uninformed statements like this are those who are unhappy that the polls demonstrate that the American people as a whole do not share their pet prejudices. While it is certainly possible to slant a poll question to make the answers come out the way you prefer, the professional pollsters take great pains to phrase questions in a neutral manner. Have you actually read the questions in many of the polls on the Iraq war? (and by the way I have had poll takers call me) If you deny that the American public as a whole is very much against this stupid war, then you are living in a world of fantasy. Not surprising since the results of the last national election demonstrated that the majority of voters in Mesa County were out of step with the rest of the State, on the wrong side compared to the Nation as a whole, and at odds with the thinking of the rest of the world. You folks are going to be rudely shocked once again come next November.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 10:17 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Proteus said: I decided not to be one of them so I made sure I became an instructor
Who decided? You were just luckier than some.
Bet the fellow Marines you served with are really proud of your cracks about the drunks at the VFW!Once again you have shown your ignorance with your comments, bunch of old men swap stories about the most exciting time in their otherwise mundane lives.Your disrespect for our Veterns makes me sick and ashamed to acknowledge you as a fellow American.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 10:21 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis, thank you, keep up the good work.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 10:22 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
American wrote: “I ask of classof52; How can you be “for” the fighting man, but “against” his fight? For the military, but against what the military stands for?”
What a simplistic and uninformed comment!! The military does not “stand” for anything. They respond to the desires of the American public through our elected representatives. The military is subservient to the chain of command which stops at the top with the Commander in Chief, a civilian and the President. This is just about the first thing I was taught during my military experience.
When the Commander in Chief misuses the military in the obscene way we have seen with our current President and his lackeys in Congress, then it is the duty of patriotic Americans who realize that our great country is being degraded by these actions to vote the bums out of office. And that is exactly what happened at the last election to be finalized at the next.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 10:28 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
This has gone far off topic, so I thought I’d post this here as a reminder:
Off-topic conversations aren’t against the rules, of course, but I’m still going to throw this out from time to time to see if I can encourage use of the forums.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 10:43 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Off topic again but…
Mr. Faux,
” While it is certainly possible to slant a poll question to make the answers come out the way you prefer, the professional pollsters take great pains to phrase questions in a neutral manner. ”
Them there perfeshunul polsters you speak of do as they are paid to do.
provide ‘data’ to show the world how wonderful the person paying them is.
And yes, I have had pollsters call me also, and after a few wrong answers I am told, “That’s all the questions I have for you today”, and they hang up.
so much for Honesty and Integrity in the polling business.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 10:59 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Todd-Good call. I agree with you and Willis (for once) that we should switch to the “forums” for our little off-subject rants. As most of us have never used this feature, is there anything special we need to know, like how to access it, etc.?
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 11:06 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Classof52-Your points are well taken. In the words of a local pundit, “There are many people here in Happy Valley who have not fully come to grips with the fact that Donna Reed is dead, ‘Beaver’ Cleaver is on Social Security, and that it’s not 1959 anymore.”
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 11:12 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Forum participation is just as easy as commenting on letters. You’ve already registered to take part; all you have to do is select your forum of choice (”General” will almost always work). Create a new topic by making a title and typing in the box. Respond to an existing topic by typing in the “reply” box.
I plan to do a how-to for the forums, including info on posting video, pictures, etc., after our Web content coordinator gets time to do an upgrade on the operating system.
Thanks for checking it out. I’ll start a “how-to” thread on the forums right away for any further questions.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 11:16 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
In #58 Willis stated, “Why is it that you will never see a happy liberal?” Well, after November a lot of us will be ecstatic - President Obama will order the Pentagon to withdraw from Iraq, an action which will be concurred with by the solid Democratic majority in Congress. We will then be able to concentrate on Afghanistan, where our focus should have been all along.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 11:25 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Sassy-to answer your question in #93 about “who decided,” the answer is “I decided” by making sure I graduated number “1″ in my class, having found out that people who graduate at the top of their class were always offered an instructor billet. All it took to be an instructor was mastering a subject at the ninth grade level so you could teach it at the eighth grade level. It was worth the effort (sic) because it kept me stateside for my entire enlistment.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 11:45 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Proteus,
You said your rank was E-7. What was your MOS?
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 11:59 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Mostly Off Sleeping?
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 11:59 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
I found the E7 with only 3 years active during that time frame to be somewhat rapid.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 12:06 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis,
Zulu Echo Romeo Oscar
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 12:13 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
That does sound like a serious fast-track, doesn’t it?
Frankly, I take everything everyone says about themselves online with a large grain of salt (about the size of a VW bug).
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 12:30 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
I’ll just bet the Op force instructors at Fort Sherman in Panama are beaming with pride. Obviously, Proteus was in the top of his class in E and E.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 12:32 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
That dog won’t hunt prarie dogs.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 12:36 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Hey, nice return, there. Points for cleverness.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 12:50 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
One.voice/Willis - I was an air controller with a secondary MOS as a door gunner on Hueys. I was released from active duty as an E-5, not an E-7. I picked up E-6 shortly after being transferred to the active reserves (MACS-23)at Buckley Field in Denver. The only reason I was discharged as an E-7 was that the “powers that be” gave me the rank as a specific incentive to sign up for a voluntary hitch in the reserves. The fools. I declined, but it was too late for them to rescind the promotion. And with that, my less than illustrous career in the military came to an end and I began getting on with my “real” life. Any more questions?
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 1:03 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
proteus, I have a question..
Did you really mean to ask ME if I have any more questions?
I gots lots ‘n lots of them things.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 1:09 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Yeah, I have one (from someone who’s been on your side through most of this debate); How can a Marine veteran have such a snotty, condescending attitude towards his fellow servicemen, particularly the ones ended up In Country, when you didn’t (I don’t mean your detractors on the board)? When I was in the USAF, one of the things I admired about you guys in the Corps was your unity (you know, you punch one Marine in a bar fight, you take on the Corps).
I guess I’m guilty of stereotyping.
Posted May 12th, 2008 at 1:13 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Curmudgeon, I am aware that you are on the side of right and goodness for a change.
I wuz Navy, and the normal rivalry existed concurrently with the overwhelming RESPECT for the Marines.
They weren’t a bad sort, it’s just that they dressed