Posted 4 months, 15 days ago in 
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In regard to the athiests’ position on City Council prayers, allow me to cite in its entirety the First Amendment to our Constitution:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
The First Amendment is one sentence, whose subject is “Congress.” The verb of the sentence is “shall make.” The direct object of the sentence is “(no) law.” Everything that follows serves to modify the word “law.”
The point: Unless Congress has made a law that affects the Council meetings, nothing unconstitutional has been done. There is absolutely no constitutional issue involved in how the City Council opens its meetings. Making such a public stink creates a waste of Council time and energy and, by extension, a waste of taxpayer resources. The Athiests’ Association has preferences — don’t we all? — but it has no argument. They are certainly free not to pray, but if they want to reference the Constitution, the proper conclusion would be for them to avoid prohibiting the free exercise of other folks’ religion. Marginalized? Not even close!
MERLE MILLER
Grand Junction
22 Responses to “First Amendment allows for invocation”
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 1:19 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Sir,
At some point you may decide that it is necessary to discover the origin of the “group of 13″, funding etc. It may be helpful to you to go to Koinonia Church (GJ) web page and check out all of the links. If you discover any information from any source that you feel might be helpful to others, please post online addressed to one.voice. We will see that they get it.
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 1:23 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Let me help you out one.voice
Here is the website for Koinonia Church
http://www.koinoniagj.com/
Ooooooooh looks like an ominous and threatening group! The purple irises are just a cover, I tell ya!
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 1:27 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Thanks, we will let the public decide.
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 1:34 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Just because certain people think they can interpret the First Amendment better than Thomas Jefferson, doesn’t mean there is no such legal concept of Separation of Church and State. There is, like it or not. Whether it is being violated here would be up to a court, not the vocal majority, to decide.
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 1:42 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
According to their site the Koinonia church welcomes diversity, and interfaith understanding and even has alliances with Gay and Lesbian Christians. From what I can tell from a quick perusal of their site, they seem to encompass what is best about Christianity.
They certainly must be different from the Baptists who stopped by my home a couple of years ago and whose principal message was that the Mormons were not really Christians. I have always found it remarkable and interesting that the Christian religion which preaches brotherhood and says it wishes to bring people together is in fact rent by so many divisions and schisms, each proclaiming that it is the only true way to salvation, as to make your head spin.
Christianity today is composed of literally thousands of cults, each with a different version of the religion. The Koinonias may be a reversal of that trend.
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 1:48 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
That’s why they’re so DANGEROUS, ‘52! Peace, love and understanding do not keep your followers in line like fear, loathing and suspicion.
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 1:57 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Fortunately there is a ray of hope for America, as Christine Wicker (veteran Texas newspaper reporter) found out after hearing the latest Pew survey on the USA religious landscape: when she started looking into the numbers on church attendance, she found that researchers could vouch for only 18 percent of Americans being regular churchgoers—less than half the accepted figure.
“The idea that evangelicals are taking over America is one of the greatest publicity scams in history,” Wicker concludes, “a perfect coup accomplished by savvy politicos and religious leaders, who understand media weaknesses and exploit them brilliantly.”
So, the Religious Right, I mean Wrong, are clearly the VOCAL MINORITY with way too much time on their hands.
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 2:01 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Ashhugger - sorry to follow you around boards, but this is probably a better place to post anyhow (work’s slow today).
In Thomas Jefferson’s writing to the Church of Danbury - which is the first time the actual term “separation of church and state” is used - he again refers to action of “law” dictating establishment of a religion or prohibiting the free act of. Until someone says you have to sit through invocation, or tithe, I believe Jefferson’s intent is still intact. Of course, this whole topic has been debated by people far more informed than me.
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 2:15 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
No worries JRL27 …
And I am sorry to assume you were among the uninformed who think separation of church and state doesn’t exist because it is “not in” the Constitution. Obviously you are better informed than most, maybe myself included.
Your last point is also mine: There have been many great legal minds debating this interpretation and no consensus has been reached yet. It is not a simple topic.
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 2:21 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Oh yes I would like to thank one.voice for making me aware of the Koinonia church. They sound wonderful. I always thought when I got “old” I would join a congregation of some sort and this one sounds just perfect for me.
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 2:24 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Ashhugger,
Congratulations on your new found faith. We hope to make many more people aware of the Koinonia Church. And you are quite welcome.
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 2:42 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Thank you, one.voice …
It’s not that I have a “new found faith” but I have, for many years recognized the value of most churches as being positive places where people can join in the spirit of community, as outlets for charitable activities, etc; churches in many ways are part of the grass roots of society.
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 2:59 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Ashhugger,
I am disheartened. I actually believed that I was witnessing a miracle. Your conversion in less than 48 hours. As you referred to yourself as “An agnostic, not an atheist, in post #1 posted to “Atheist Groups Should Not Set Policy, on May 22, 2008 and later in post #68 you referred jokingly to yourself as an “evangelical agnostic”, I mistakenly believed I was seeing a progression towards faith. But sadly, I was wrong. I am sorry that that thing with Ramon didn’t work out for you (post 75). You know I’ve totally forgotten what post it was where you put up the web site for the Koinonia Church. Would you mind very much posting that website again for me? Thank you
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 3:01 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Look out ash, I think you’ve made it on to one of his ‘lists…’
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 3:13 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Ha ha toa, I think you’re right.
one.voice I am sorry you are disheartened.
Here’s the website again as you requested; I bookmarked it.
http://www.koinoniagj.com/
Hey see that picture of the little girl on the home page? I think you better put her on your list too. She looks suspicious.
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 4:04 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Ashugger, et al-As a point of reference, venerable Sentinel columnist and local icon Henrietta Hay is a member of Koinonia Church. I think the reason one.voice has a problem with that church is that it’s not a “thunder and lightning” evangelical stronghold where people speak in tongues.
By the way, one.voice - what church DO you attend?
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 4:07 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Thanks for that tidbit Sugarfoot. It must be a cool church indeed if Henrietta Hay is a member!
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 4:17 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Assumption: we are a he
Henrietta Hay, relevance?
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 4:27 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
One.voice-I ask again, what church do you attend? I’m starting a list of all the subversive evangelical and Pentecostal churches in the Grand Valley and I want to be sure yours is at the top.
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 4:28 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
one.voice-I ask again, what church do you attend?
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 4:30 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
one.voice — I noticed someone assumed you were a “he” and i would go along with that assumption; though I am sure some women share your apparent “007″ type fantasy (another assumption) … the majority of people who like to pretend they are spies are boys or mentally, uh - “young” men.
Sugarfoot already pointed out who Henrietta Hay is. Isn’t she on “the list” too?
Posted May 24th, 2008 at 10:10 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
” toaaronuu
Posted May 23rd, 2008 at 1:48 pm PM This User Report this comment
That’s why they’re so DANGEROUS, ‘52! Peace, love and understanding do not keep your followers in line like fear, loathing and suspicion.”
Yup, the tactics of Lenin, Stalin, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, chairman Mao, etc, are much more peaceful and loving.
(that oughta get some shoes pounding on the tables)
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