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As we prepare to be immersed by unprecedented flood of political rhetoric, I would ask that all candidates, but particularly those running for county commissioner here in Delta County, reflect on what our founding fathers laid out for us before espousing radical political philosophies that have little or nothing to do with the positions they seek.
In particular, we will hear a great deal about the Constitution and individual rights. These arguments will be made loudly in the defense of property rights and will be supported by a belief that all government is too big and inherently bad.
After those patriots threw off the yoke of British domination, they struggled mightily to not repeat the mistakes of all the previous governments and societies in mankind’s history. Succeed they did and gave us this wonderful democratic republic that is truly government and, to this point, the envy of the entire human experience.
As they structured the Constitution and the Bill of Rights they defined a limited role for a “federal” government and reserved to the states many government functions. Following that lead, the states, in drafting their constitutions and regulations, reserved even more basic functions to county, town, city, district, etc. — goverments.
The key to the success of the great republic is government. A government “Of the people, for the people and by the people” is what has made it all work. So it is logical to deduce that government and its laws are critical to the continued functioning of this greatest of human experiments.
In some instances, government at all levels has gotten too big, and there is no question that at all levels it pokes its nose into areas that are none of its business. But those who advocate throwing the baby out with the bath water just because it needs changing are not following in the footsteps of our founding fathers who obliviously understood that the greater good of the majority of people had to served first.
Without the structure of government and the laws and regulations it sets forth, there are no personal or property rights, there is only anarchy.
Here in Delta County, we have those who are advocating anarchy in the name of private property rights and have the gall to refer to the Constitution as the source of those claims.
I am a life long Republican, a resident of Delta County for more than 40 years, have successfully started from scratch five businesses without one dime of government money. I pay a ton of property tax, as opposed to many who keep their holdings falsely identified as agricultural, and I will defend my personal and property rights to the death. However, those property rights exist only because there is government.
When I exercise my property rights to the point that it causes my neighbors or the local community economic loss by devaluing their holdings, my rights need to be held to a standard that protects the greater good. When exercising my property rights greatly compromises the quality of life of my neighbors and community, my rights need to be held to a performance level that does not rob that life quality from the greater good. When I profit from my property rights and in doing so knowingly pass on to future owners shortfalls that will cause them economic or quality of life losses, I have failed those founding fathers.
So let us start a dialog that first accepts the fact that our local governments are needed. A government for the people and by the people should be made up of the best of the people we have available and not those who will campaign on a government-hate platform. Make them talk about roads, water, public safety and maintaining quality of life for the greater good of the majority. Their positions on national security and defense, national energy policy, right to life or right to choose, etc., do not have one thing to do with being county commissioner.
We have great races shaping up for two of the three commissioner seats. There now appears to be at least seven people who will be seeking our votes. This is not about Democrat, Republican, Libertarian or Independent. This is about picking the best people to address the job they seek. Only by seeking out those who will address the greater good will we find those who will draw fresh water for the baby’s bath.
Thomas Huerkamp
Orchard City
56 Responses to “Delta County Commission races should be about who will do the best job”
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 11:39 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Here!Here! Good advice for Mesa County, as well. And for that matter, District represenative races as well. Government at all levels can be what the people want it to be, within the bounds of the constitution. It is idiotic to even give any credence to the nostrums of people like Grover Norquist, and many others, who essentially advocate doing awy with all taxes, and, therefore, government. It’s ironic(hypocritic), however, that such people do have things they want government to do for them, it’s what other people may want or need they deem to be unneccessary or excessive. We live in COMMUNITIES, meaning sharing, not isolated from each other solely as individuals.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 12:39 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
John B: Here!Here!
Where John? Where?
I am planning on attending your meeting tomorrow morning!
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 12:59 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Probably Hear! Hear! is what you are suggesting. Picky picky, picky. We’ll enjoy your company. I hesitate to call it a meeting. It’s a regular gathering of what one councilman chose to call Malcontents and even one of our regulars thought should be called Whiny White Guys. I’m sure that Ms. Bradford will have an enjoyable time, if she shows, and we’re particularly interested in meeting American Patriot, who said he’s coming. Fat chance!
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 1:57 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
So?
What would happen if I show up and ’splain the Congressional Oath of Office?
What if I were to point out the “-enemies, both foreign and domestic-” relates specifically to liberals in search of ways to destroy the Constitution?
And what will you whiny white boys do if I prove my position?
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 2:14 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
John B.
What was that book you were reading? Do you always sit facing the door? It would sound very much like you have invited me to a non-event. I’ll give the guest of honor a call and see if she is coming. Let’s see, that would be the same lady that called you within a few minutes of the time you posted your sign theft online, wouldn’t it? Interesting coincidence. Perhaps you assume too much. I have and will see you there.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 2:44 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
A-P– Good.You’re always welcome. We’re there every week at 9:30 and we’ll be interested in your perspective in whatever discussions we have. I wouldn’t call Laura a guest of honor but just one of many interesting people who join us from time to time. By the way, someone at the Sentinel posted my letter on-line. I sent it to the Sentinel as a letter to the editor. You might try it sometime. Let the world know about your astounding knowledge of just about everything rather than limiting yourself to the usual attendees. There is also the possibility that Laura saw the same letter in print that day–before it appeared on-line at the Sentinel–over at the Free Press. You’ll introduce yourself with your real name rather than the silly American Patriot handle you’ve chosen, won’t you? We’re not interested in conversing with people who hide behind anonymity when we’re face to face.
WLJ– we’d be astounded. With two constitutional scholar/attorneys in the room–not including you, of course-I seriously doubt you’ll prove anything about you that we don’t already know. Come on down! We’re always open to new, off-the -wall ideas. A little levity is always fun to break up serious discussion
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 3:15 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
John B,
I always get a good laugh from those individuals who think they control the agenda, yet have no sense of history what-so-ever. It sounds like the venue for your little meeting creates a historical faux pas. Shouldn’t you be in a Bavarian beer hall? Do you honestly think you will be able to tell the players without a program? Could you be thinking that my attendance will be for your purpose? How naive. I simply liked your suggestion that it would be nice to put faces with some of the names, and I thank you for providing that opportunity. That was thoughtful of you.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 3:37 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
A-P What in the world are you talking about? Your attendance is optional and up to you. We could care less if you came or not. Rest assured, if we had an agenda, and we don’t, it would not be up to you. Your attendance will be a novelty and an amusing diversion. On second thought, it’s not nice to make fun of those with mental defects, so we won’t. Unless provoked, of course. It’s not a blog and we make up the rules of etiquette, not the Sentinel. We discuss things in a civil manner and if you’re not prepared to do likewise you’re not welcome.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 3:53 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
This means that AMerican_Patriot and I can’t even talk to you because it would classify as picking on mental defects?
Well, that lets me out.
I never pick on the mentally disabled, unless I can prove it’s more of a case of extreme stupidity.
At this ‘meeting’ I may not have enough time to cover all the extremely stupids you little buddies have posted on here.
And I was so looking forward to making you look bad in front of all your friends….
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 4:07 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
John B
Wow, John B. You went from come on down to you’re not welcome. You really need to get those mood swings under control. Now, where did you get the idea that your discussions were of any interest at all to me? It’s the face thing, John. Does this mean that Main Street Bagels is going to lock the door and roll up the red carpet. That’s not a problem. Here I thought you were a high-tech progressive kind of guy. You know, all the latest gadgets, sort of a liberal, high-tek redneck. Now, me, I couldn’t live without all the bells and whistles. Those Japanese have really made some great breakthroughs in photography technology. You need to climb out of that horse and buggy. It’s a brave new world out there. The application of laser technology would astound you. They can be used to measure minute vibrations, such as a house fly buzzing against a plate glass window. If you slow that sound down, it sounds like a helicopter, and the amazing thing is you can actually discriminate between two different flies. Thank you for the advice about not making fun of people with mental defects. That sounds like good advice. I do try very hard to follow that advice, but I do catch myself with a slight, involuntary smile from time to time. But I am working on that John. I’ll see you there.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 4:16 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
LJ–Great comeback for a sixth grader. Assuming you show without an alias we’ll be anxious to see how you destroy our fragile egos. I realize you consider that your life’s work but you may be disappointed. In any event, if you behave the way you do on the blog you’ll be shown the door. If you choose to be smart –s and uncivil we don’t need you, as if we ever did. This is our long standing group and anybody is welcome to discuss the serious and not-so-seriousn in a civil way. This is not a special occasion. You are welcome but you’ll play by our rules, which is actually only one, civility.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 4:19 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
I wish I could be there. I have been waiting for Willis to say something intelligent. Maybe tomorrow will be the day?
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 4:22 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
A-P I take it you were not planning to be civil. Sorry that you take that as a new condition. Most of us–humans–assume that is an unspoken condition of living in civil society. Once again, what in the h–l are you talking about. You really need to get back on your meds.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 4:28 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
John: I very seriously doubt that either one of these “gentlemen” will show up tomorrow unless it is to sit anonymously in the corner. They don’t want the rest of us to put real names and faces with the garbage they hide behind with fake handles on this forum. Rather interesting that you and I both are not afraid to let posters here know who we are whereas these two get panic stricken with the notion of being outed.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 4:29 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
To Oliver–Don’t count on it. Also, they talk big but we’ll see if they even show. But, yes, if they do it will certainly be interesting to see if they can function in anything but the anonymity of a blog. I’m guessing it will be a Wizard of Oz thing. When the curtain lifts who knows what kind of creature we’ll see.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 4:32 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis,
See Willis, I told you that they thought you didn’t know where the door was, or couldn’t find it by yourself. Isn’t it empowering to be underestimated? And it so often results in what is known as a cause of action. I have been thinking lately. Wouldn’t it be nice to find a good location on Main Street for a Dunkin’ Donuts? You know, we could sell all of those flavored coffees. I just envisioned you with a half apron on, asking John B. if he wanted another squirt of hazelnut in that cup of “joe”. But here is one for you. Try to envision John B. setting on one of those rotating stools at the counter, with a cop sitting on each side, both of them with crew-cuts. The one on his right has a death before dishonor tattoo on his forearm. The one on his left has a red hot tattoo on his right arm resulting from a not so sober weekend in Bangkok, Thailand, and you behind the counter slowly bringing the subject around to prayer in schools. Now skip on down to the part where “death before dishonor” asks John B what kind of car he drives, at the same time he exchanges a knowing glance in your direction. Give that man another cup of coffee, and try not to smile. It is a beautiful day.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 4:35 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
To Class — It just came to me. These guys must be athletes, well versed in trash talking to try to intimidate the other team. They’re in big trouble. They bit off way more than they can chew. I doubt that they’ll have the guts to even get on the field.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 4:38 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
A-P–Amazing! Get back on those meds–quick!
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 4:44 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
John: “To Class — It just came to me. These guys must be athletes, well versed in trash talking to try to intimidate the other team. They’re in big trouble. They bit off way more than they can chew. I doubt that they’ll have the guts to even get on the field.”
Naw, I was an athlete (paid my way through Indiana University on an athletic “scholarship”). Trash talking is a recent phenomenon. In the old days (and both of these guys belong to the old days) athletes were honorable and respectful of one another and learned the value of teamwork. I doubt they were ever a member of any team.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 4:45 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
john b, on a serious note, what exactly is your stance on taxes?…i’m not saying do away with taxes entirely, but we desperately need to overhaul our current system
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 4:49 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis,
Isn’t it empowering to be underestimated. I think what they are trying to tell us is; we have you outnumbered, we have selected the time and place, and you are invited, and what they didn’t take into account is that you or I have studied Sun Tsu’s art. After all they consider us to be mentally deficient.
And by the way, John, the object is to take the field, not get on the field.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 5:42 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
John,
I am truly sorry I will not make it to the Bagel tomorrow. I am off to Denver for the COGCC hearings that start on Monday ( as a volunteer rexall, so give it a rest.). I would truly love to participate in tomorrows’ discussion. Alas; Duty calls.
I will look forward to seeing the fallout on this site when I return. Have fun and feliz fin dec semana!
Duke
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 5:43 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
correction: fin de semana.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 6:04 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
To Hitek — I agree, the tax system needs overhaul. It’s not so much the system but all of the exemptions, credits and special case diddling that has bastardized it. If you may have an interest in the Flat Tax, I’m foursquare against it, as currently discussed. I’m absolutely for a graduated tax system. Those that say the flat tax is a fair tax seem to believe that those with the most need to be allowed to keep it all. I think they should, but not to the degree that has been happening. A society with the huge disparities we now have is an unstable society. I believe in merit deserving higher earnings but money is power and if we let it get out of hand we end up where we are now. If you don’t think those with the most bucks rule our lives you are naive or not paying attention. People earn all of the profits generated in society and pay all the taxes. The question is, what is the proper share due ownership and the workers? If labor is impotent in bargaining for their share of output and productivity then tax policy ought to be used to get a better balance. This is not equal earnings for everybody. Merit matters but the more money you have the more power you have over others. A society with huge disparities between most people and those at the top is doomed to fail, unfortunately too often with violence.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 6:17 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
AP, in one of his previous posts, made the following statement: “I always get a good laugh from those individuals who think they control the agenda, yet have no sense of history what-so-ever.”
That is a rather interesting statement. Perhaps he would care to explain to us what he means by the term.
As an assist, I will outline three points which need to be addressed. (1) What is it; i.e. of what does it consists? (2) Of what significance is it? and (3) How should it be used to be truly useful?
He may take all the time he needs but, it would seem to me that one who would refer to history to buttress any of his points should at least have some concept of what it is, and therefore it should not take too long.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 6:20 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
I agree with John B. I do not believe in taxation for the redistribution of wealth. I do believe that taxation can be used in a punitive way against corporations with excessive profits, but only under a system whereby they are disallowed from passing the burden of these taxes back to the people. I believe by necessity people must be taxed according to their ability to pay. They say that the way to get a persons attention is to get into their wallet. I believe with the present inflationary pressures on food, fuel etc., that the current and new administrations will soon have the undivided attention of the American public.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 6:27 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
RL,
Are these truly the questions that I am to answer? Is this truly your agenda? My God I am lol. You’ll need to get up earlier than that. Your inability to put the phrase in context is noted, but the fact is that I don’t care whether you understand. You really should try a new approach.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 6:35 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Laitres: “That is a rather interesting statement. Perhaps he would care to explain to us what he means by the term.”
I too did not understand the sentence, but since AP is incomprehensible in much of his writing, I did not take particular notice. Since you are an historian, I can understand why the opacity of his statement would resonate with you.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 6:37 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Many speak of taxation as if it were some “remote” event occuring only in Washington or at the State level. It is not. All one has to do is look at what local governments, even municipal, are doing. It doesn’t matter if it is a Recreation or Senior center in Fruita, a golf course or sports complex in Delta, or some project in Montrose or Telluride. The problem is always that far too many people cannot distinguish between what they “want” and what they “need.” To far too many people, the only standard they use is “If it’s for me, even if its only a “want”, it’s good.” If it is for someone else, even if it’s a “need”, it’s bad.” Just try to stand up and point out the difference to such “I want crowds” when they want something, and to public officials when they are trying to “buy” votes for the next election. They will try to run over you like you were not even there. I know, I have done it, and it is personally none too pleasant.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 6:48 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
To my request for but a definition of a term he used (history), AP responded with the following: “Are these truly the questions that I am to answer? Is this truly your agenda? My God I am lol. You’ll need to get up earlier than that. Your inability to put the phrase in context is noted, but the fact is that I don’t care whether you understand. You really should try a new approach.”
One can only surmise from such a response that the individual apparently has no concept of what constitutes history. And, what has that to do with any “agenda.” Such evasion is truly sad to see in an individual, in particular one who would pretend to be knowledgeable and well versed in many subjects.
Perhaps we should believe him when, in a post on another subject, he referred to, and took being “simplistic” as somehow being something about which he should be proud. It is actually something quite the opposite. I was hoping that the individual had made a “typo”, but apparently not.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 7:33 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Bobbie,
I’m sorry that you went to all that trouble to research Bavarian beer. Perhaps this post will give you the opportunity to present your agenda, as was the purpose of your first post.
You and Class of 52 should really try to work up some new material. Something simple, maybe. Then you could both understand it. If I had answered your questions, would I have been following your agenda?
Think of it this way, Bobbie, if I had answered them, but not the way you expected, you and Class would have had to go through this “let’s see if we can bait him, routine” exactly like you just did. I have been hooking and dragging you and Class for weeks, and you expect me to fall for this routine. You must really think me simple.
OK, now Bobbie, we are prepared to see your warped rant on history. Go right ahead and show us what a learned individual you are. That was the opportunity you were looking for in the first place. Between you and Class you never miss an opportunity to talk down to the world. Don’t you think by now we realize that. You needn’t do so much prep work. Why do you need a lead-in.
The only thing I request is at the end of your dissertation and self exalting is that you have Class sign off for you by saying, my name is J Eugene Fox and I approve this message. And then you can do the same, by writing my name is Robert I Laitres and I approved this message. Better yet, why don’t you just have him write your stuff for you and you could do the same for you. I would think this would be possible in consideration of your close personal relationship, and your kinship of purpose.
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 7:33 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Classof52 stated: ” Since you are an historian, I can understand why the opacity of his statement would resonate with you.”
While I thank the gentleman, I would never consider myself, in any way, shape or form, an historian. While I have read much history over the last 50 years, and still do, to consider myself a “historian” would be pretentious on my part. But, “thank you” anyway.
To be honest, what truly irks me, is the prostitution of that academic discipline by those who know nothing of it. Sadder yet, most have absolutely no interest in studying and learning “history.” Such individuals are encountered in every area where, knowing form alone (knowing of things), they delude themselves into believing that they know substance (understanding).
Posted June 19th, 2008 at 7:41 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
AP responds, once again failing to answer three simple questions, instead replying with the following: “The only thing I request is at the end of your dissertation and self exalting is that you have Class sign off for you by saying, my name is J Eugene Fox and I approve this message. And then you can do the same, by writing my name is Robert I Laitres and I approved this message. Better yet, why don’t you just have him write your stuff for you and you could do the same for you. I would think this would be possible in consideration of your close personal relationship, and your kinship of purpose.”
Quite a transparent evasion AP. Why don’t you just admit that you don’t know the answers, and have never even considered the questions? That might be a good start.
As far as Classof52, I doubt if he is in need of my assistance, and I would not presume to speak for him as I am quite certain he would not for me. That is called “respecting” the other, and observing the proper bounds of propriety. Or, to put it in a more “simplistic” manner, it is just plain old courtesy.
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 9:02 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
john b…i disagree with you about the flat or fair taxes…i feel a consumption tax would benefit us in many different ways, such as teaching us to save more and the ability of middle and lower class income earners keeping their entire paycheck instead of loaning government that money interest free for the year…you claim that upper income earners should pay more of the burden of taxes, which they in all reality already do….bear in mind that as of right now, most mower income people don’t pay taxes at all, tho they still loan their earnings to government coffers….i’ve read your argument that the disparities between lower income earners and higher are too great to overcome and that a consumption tax would only put us deeper in a hole, but i just don’t see that happening….people with more money are going to keep spending more than people with less, thereby paying more taxes, esp if we tax consumption on luxury items at a higher rate….i’m by no means stating a consumption tax as the end-all perfect answer for taxation, but i do feel it’s the best answer i’ve heard so far
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 12:01 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Well, we had a fine meeting this morning at Main Stree Bagels with Laura Bradford. And as predicted although some others from the forum turned up AP and WLJ were conspicuous by their absence. I suspect the reason they did not turn up is that they would have been so out of place in the highly civilized and polite discussions we had where no one called anybody else an obscene name or delivered a personal insult. They can’t function in this manner so they prefer to hide behind the obscurity of their screen handles where they feel protected and can get away with all of their nasty personal garbage. Not that anyone reads their stuff much anymore except grandma6.
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 12:32 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Class is correct about me being nowhere near the place today. I had some other things to do, and besides if he had checked, he would have seen I have been here posting this morning. I’m sure it was a very civil, pleasant discussion. Of course, I don’t know what was said, because I wasn’t there. How could I know? It’s clear that my anonymity bothers you. Why do you use Class of 52? What were your thoughts at the time you picked that out? I am sure that you have a perfectly reasonable reason which doesn’t include anonymity. Not long ago, you suggested that I write letters to the editor. I have done that on many occasions and had them published, and as I said before your problem is that you don’t know where to look. That must be frustrating for you. I do think you are over-reacting to your outing, but you mostly did that yourself. And that was of course, your choice. But it does present certain problems, doesn’t it? I would have thought an intelligent man like yourself would have thought of that, before making your decision. May I ask you a question? I know you have a purpose for posting on this forum. Are you going somewhere with what you do? Do you have a purpose and a goal? I know you like having this forum for propaganda, and occasionally I will find you actually entering into a conversation, and I know the method you have tried to use to control the forum. But, beyond that, do you really have any real purpose in mind? I understand that using your own name would be of great benefit in recruiting, but it seems that the risks outweigh the benefits. I normally wouldn’t be this direct with you. What I am really trying to find out is; are your posts just a hodgepodge of thoughts and ideas meant to demean, or is there a direction to what you do?
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 1:17 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
To Hitek– I figured that this would be a come-on for the flat tax. My biggest problem with the flat tax is that those on, or near, the bottom spend most of their income on consumption meaning most of it is taxed whereas the higher the income the lower the percent is taxed. True, the proposals suggest that there be some waiver of the first portion of income/consumption. That can’t be done at the point of purchase. You mention not letting government use witholding interest free. How is the waiver administered if not from an after the fact rebate? Interest free? The merchant remits flat tax collected to the government periodically and then the qualifier for the waiver applies for his rebate from —the government which has been using the money until the rebate is paid. Most high income people don’t spend huge portions of their income on consumption, they invest it, which is all to the good. But all of the income from their investments is not taxed in any way. Income from investments multiplies untaxed over time. The hand-to-mouth people don’t have the opportunity to do that. Yes, middle income people have the opportunity to invest discretionary income and participate in the tax-free multipier but not to the extent–or even near–what the very affluent can accomplish. The flat tax, fair tax(sic) is anything but . It is promoted by the investment class to benefit themselves and snooker the rest of us to believe that it is fair. The fact is that the more money you have the more our government and it’s protections make the accumulation of wealth in the first place possible and then keep it and multiply. Income/wealth ought to pay far more to support–taxes–the government that those with less income pay. Wealth is easier to accumulate–legally –in this country than any other in the world because of the protections of our government and it’s institutions. Those that benefit the most should pay more to support it–and not just on some proportionate scale but an ever increasing scale. If you are on a flat tax kick you’ve been sucked in unless you are very wealthy, in which case support for the idea makes a lot of sense. The scheme is meant to free the wealthy from taxation as much as possible. You can understand their enthusiasm. The problem of huge disparity in wealth that has come about in this country is de-stabilizing and the flat tax would exacerbate it. If this country stands for opportunity we should try hard to make sure it is available to everybody. Opportunity, not income leveling or equality in income. To provide the steps to truly correct the impediments to oportunity that currently exist for much of our population will cost money and–heaven forbid–government supported by taxation. The flat tax is meant to reduce government by limiting taxation income by putting much more of the burden down lower in the income levels to the point it’s unbearable and freeing up the very wealthy from financing much of the government that gives them the biggest benefit. Nice work if you get it! It’s a scam, Hitek
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 1:28 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
A-P–a big long harangue about nothing to rationalize why you are afraid to “come out” and deal with people face to face. We knew you were a fraud and coward going in and you have just proved it conclusively. All of your boasting, taunts, bad-mouthing are the sign of a very litle man hiding behind the keys of his computer. I have no idea of your age but obviously you might have made it to puberty but maturity has escaped you. I know this will bring a huge rant from you but it is all posturing and hot air. You, sir, are laughingstock and blot on this forum.
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 1:36 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
john b, it wasn’t a come-on for the flat/fair tax, it was an honestly asked question…i thank you for your position, tho i disagree with much of it….regardless of how we change the tax code and how revenue is aquired in this country,nothing will change until government, whether fed, state, or local reigns in spending….as a small business owner (1 employee, so don’t go accusing me of being wealthy) i know how my heart starts beating rapidly when i hear of “government jobs” opening up because on all levels, there is no accountability on what they spend…kinda like spending billions to research the sex life of black ants…or if there is, it isn’t evident…something you might want to think about as well….much of the income disparity in this country is due to laziness….everybody in this country, as you’ve stated yourself, has the same opportunities as everybody else…but not everybody has the drive to better themselves, and with the progressive tax, that means the harder working you are, the more you’re penalized, tho it does go for support of our governments….
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 2:13 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
” And as predicted although some others from the forum turned up AP and WLJ were conspicuous by their absence. I suspect the reason they did not turn up is that they would have been so out of place in the highly civilized and polite discussions we had where no one called anybody else an obscene name or delivered a personal insult. They can’t function in this manner so they prefer to hide behind the obscurity of their screen handles where they feel protected and can get away with all of their nasty personal garbage. Not that anyone reads their stuff much anymore except grandma6.
”
For my own personal reasons for not being there, I have several.
A. I have a life and it does not include pandering to doddering old fools who view themselves as superior to any others that they must share this planet with.
B. I have a life that includes more family than fools.
C. I have a life that does not require constantly lowering the bar jsut to see if those in question can consistenly come in under the bar, even when it is placed well below fround level.
D. I have a life that does not require me to ….
oh I already said the pandering to doddering old fools didn’t I. (no question mark because it was a statement of fact)
E. I have a life that providesme with plenty of enjoyment without the necessity of cleaning spittle off my self from doddering old fools that cannot control their ability to slobber when upset.
Any more questions little buddies?
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 2:20 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
As I said JohnB, hiding behind screen handles so they can call people names and deliver insults in anonymity as proved by the comments just above.
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 2:37 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
cmon, classless, you can do better than that…at lest you started to in my venting thread
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 2:45 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Naw, Hitek, I recognize that you are not basically mean spirited and so our little word games are just in fun. I never have bothered to answer AP and WLJ in kind. I just ignore these little gnat bites (I am talking about the comments not the individuals).
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 3:16 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
JohnB- How typical of American_Patriot and Willis Johnson to not show up at your little shindig at Main Street Bagel this morning. Also typical is that their reaction to being called on it has been to attack the messenger. The stark, unadulterated fact is that they both “wimped out” when faced with revealing their true identities in public.
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 3:47 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
The rant would appear to be yours. I got what I went for.
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 3:50 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Class
You are a liar. You welsh on bets. Your feet stink and I am pretty sure you don’t love Jesus.
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 4:01 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
dagnabit, ap, i nearly wet myself…ya posted this in the wrong area tho, i kept lookin for it in the vitriol thread
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 4:06 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
OK, Hitek, if you insist, I’ll cut and paste it. Anybody besides Class, John B or Laitres have any other requests as to where I should put it.
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 4:13 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
hitek — I appreciate your comments. But I didn’t say that all have the same opportunities. For one, college is out of the reach of many. Mainly though, the drive you mention is not innate in all and how you’ve grown up and who your mentors in life, and their drive and attitudes were make a huge difference in seeing opportunities available to you and generally how you view the world. We all have difference in our formative years and they count. That was what I was referring to. I don’t agree at all that much of the income disparity in this country is due to lziness. Some yes, but generally , I belive things have been stacked in favor of the wealthy who have the means at their disposal to influence public opinion. Advertising, marketing, image making and attitude influencing work, or it wouldn’t be the multi-billion industry that it is.
I also hate to see government waste but some of what some call waste is what appears to be redundancy, in employees particularly. Some of that is due to government programs having to be staffed all the time and be ready for whatever comes up. A private employer employer might let people go or lay them off and figure that any loss of service capability was worth the cut in salaries. Private employers can make trade offs and either suffer the consequences or get by. People expect government programs to be always available and to everybody all the time. a good example of government trying to do that is staffing and hiurs at the DMV. How do you like that experience? Tried it lately? All the people I’ve seen there were diligent. There just weren’t enough of them.
Government could be just as cost-conscious and efficient with better oversight. Stockholders wouldn’t let their organization go without constant oversight. The people we elect are no longer accountable to the public. Our out-of-control election and campaign system depends on un-godly amounts of money and our “servants” are not concentrated on making government work as they are in keeping their donors happy. That’s true of both parties–equal opportunity, a pox on both their houses. But, like the Supremes say, money equals speech and until we can make representatives accountable to us, it’s trouble. The problem is, which programs can we do without? They all have constituencies. I don’t need lots of them but somebody does. Every politician I’ve ever asked for “where is the waste and what has to go” have punted. As recently as today, Laura Bradford told us that she knows it’s out there but she had no idea where.
By the way, Ms. Bradford signed Grover Norquist’s petition to starve government to the point it washes down the drain. Yeah, that’ll work! I don’t enjoy paying taxes but we need government and we need to pay for it. You may not like some of the things government is involved in, but somebody does or it wouldn’t be there. That’s why we vote for the person who most closely believes in the things we would like government to be involved in.
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 4:23 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
WLJ –your words “At this ‘meeting’ I may not have enough time to cover all the extremely stupids you little buddies have posted on here.
And I was so looking forward to making you look bad in front of all your friends….”
Sounds to me that you were indicating you were coming to our little get-together. All that was said in my #38 applies to you to. Gutless windbag!
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 4:35 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
john, i am the one that stated everybody has the same opportunities in this country…college isn’t out of reach, there’s entirely too many programs out to help people get the education of their choice….and while definitely valuable, a college education by no means guarantees a future….i happen to be a high-school dropout that has bettered myself through various means and finally started my own business…yeah, i’m bragging, but the old saying holds true….if i can do it, anybody can…growing up, ma worked her behind off just to make ends met as best she could, and i had no other role models….i only know that i hated living that way, that’s why i say success mainly depends on your own heart and hard work ethics…and yes, i agree that much of government waste is redundancy, but you still hear about $50 nuts and bolts that we get in the hardware store for a couple of bucks, and i think that’s only the tip of the iceberg….a huge amount of money is wasted on welfare…i think if we made a program to put welfare families to work instead of just handing out a check, you’ld see welfare roles diminish rapidly….also, it should be we, the people who determine if congress or other elected officials recieve a raise in pay….there’s tons of areas where government can cut costs at multiple levels….
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 9:03 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Hitek– not to be picky and no big thing, I take the following quote from you as attributing the opportunity staement as mine. “….much of the income disparity in this country is due to laziness….everybody in this country, as you’ve stated yourself, has the same opportunities as everybody else…”
The opportiuniies are out there but they are not available to everbody for the reasons I’ve mentioned. For an opportunity to be recognized you have to be attuned to seeing something as an opportunity and you have to have an attitude that it really can be yours. No, I don’t think if you can do it, anybody can. Your mother has obviously been an inspiration to you. You have also been raised with an attitude you can do it. Many people’s early years have conditioned them to think the cards are stacked against them and that is hard to ovecome. We need to spend money and effort trying to overcome such negative conditions and it will cost money. In the end we all benefit from a more educted and positive work force.
Posted June 20th, 2008 at 10:23 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Hitek — Please excuse the many spelling goofs in #52. Haste makes waste. I think you can get the meanings, though.
Posted June 21st, 2008 at 8:01 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
“Spelling goofs” john?
Difficulty seeing through all the spittle on your monitor?
As I may have mentioned to your little buddy gene…
YOU do not have the authority to set mandatory meetings and require me, or any other person to appear.
Please refer to post #40 and check if any of the reasons stated apply to you personally.
The Bombast Buffoon Brigade has no power outside its own little clique, of which I choose not to be a party too.
So go ahead, hold your little mindless meetings and brag to each other how wonderful you think you are, but be very careful when you venture out into the real world.
Posted June 21st, 2008 at 10:27 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
RLJ — Been there, done that and still am. It was an INVITATION, astronaut!
Crawl back in your little dark hole and don’t pester the grownups.
Posted June 21st, 2008 at 10:29 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Another slip up. That’s WLJ. Hard to miss, but I did.
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