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Whether you believe in God or don’t believe in God, it is a fact that human life (like you and me) begins when the sperm fertilizes the egg (at the moment of conception). This is a biological and scientific fact.
The fertilized egg has all the genetic characteristics of a complete human being as you and me and constantly developing in consciousness (mind) and rationality (intellect). It only stops at death. There is nothing complicated about this. This is a simple fact established by science — no faith required here.
Whether you believe in God or don’t believe in God, you would not even think of murdering a defenseless, innocent human being. There is nothing complicated about this either. This is a simple moral statement — no faith required here either. Women’s freedom and right to choose does not include freedom to murder.
Murder is a conscious decision to kill a defenseless and innocent human being whose only guilt is being inconvenient.
VIOLETE STEVENS
Grand Junction
54 Responses to “Abortion is murder”
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 1:50 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Biological fact does not have anything to do with the generation of huge amounts of money for the liberals that derive a good deal of campaign contributions from those businesses.
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 2:04 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
And, as an aside, how is biological fact ignorant?
Even yer bestest buddy gene acknowledges that life precedes conception.
How did you ever miss out on that detail?
Do you have his permission to speak without a script?
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 2:16 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
My attack is on your views, Willis. There are only a couple of people I personally loathe and you are not one of them. My reaction is to the stupid things you say. You are suggesting that Democrats support a womans’ right to choose for profit? That the Democratic party is supported by blood money?
That is despicable. What thought have you ever given to anything you say, before you say it? No wonder you are a pariah. Try actually reading with comprehension some day. Or maybe go listen to someone, just for fun. Your recent go around with Scott is a perfect case in point. You are so enslaved to your own ignorance that you occupy your time arguing minutia for the sake of arguing or to try to make yourself seem smart. Don’t you think it would be better to try to say relevant things instead of spouting uninformed, political garbage?
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 2:31 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Yeah duke, that pretty much covers the issue.
Abortion is big money, and nearly all democrats collect huge donations from abortion mills.
Did you ever ask yourself why a woman would choose to engage in activities known to cause pregnancy, then try to figure out how it all happened and how to make it all go away?
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 2:32 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
duke, do you think killing unborn babies is despicable?
If not, why not?
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 2:35 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis,
Who died and made you God?
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 2:38 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Notice how Willis doesn’t mention the Father’s responsibilities in a pregnancy, only the Mother’s? Why is that?
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 2:40 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Nobody made me God little feller.
How many child support payments have you gotten out of because the female in question got an abortion?
Curmie, it’s because the female seems to be the one with the most to lose in this subject.
I’m pure hell on sperm donors that run and hide.
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 2:52 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
I have never been involved in an abortion and I resent the tenor of your question.
Many women engage in those activities because men force them to. Maybe you would prefer that a rape victim be forced to bear an unwanted child. Is that how you see it? Maybe you would set up a home for the children of rape victims and support them yourself? Maybe it would be fair to say that the fetus must live but the rapist must die. Would you go for that Willis? Are you pro-life, Willis? Are you pro-war? Are you pro-death penalty? Be consistent, Willis.
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 3:03 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Ya know duke, you really must be careful with strawmen, sometimes they will burn you.
I favor a D and C after a rape.
And yes, I am very harsh on rapists.
You desire consistency?
OK.
Pro death penalty for the guilty, anti death penalty for the innocent, unborn children.
Very few are “pro war” duke, but there are a very large percentage that realize that as long as there are megalomaniacs, and power hungry dictators, there will be wars, and appeasement NEVER prevents war.
I am very anti liberal because the liberal philosophies have been proven to fail every time they have been tried.
And the new bunch of liberals are too stupid to learn from history.
It makes no difference what label you attach to a liberals idealogy, this country has been the one with the greatest advantage for all persons, but the liberal ideology is determined to destroy this country in favor of failing again.
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 3:07 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Ms. Stevens is allowing her emotion to run away with her, as evidenced by the contents of her post. She undoubtedly believes that she ‘knows’, yet only believes. Yet apparently has never bothered to engage her mind.
She undoubtedly believes, as do most such ‘true believers’, that if one is for Roe vs. Wade, one is ‘for’ abortion. That displays nothing but false logic. Instead of seriously thinking about the issue about what is human life and when it begins, she allows herself to be controlled by what others have told her. If she went over her own letter, she might find that even there we find contradiction, especially as refers to consciousness and intellect.
Others in this thread, Mr. Johnson specifically, accuses others (namely Democrats) of encouraging abortions for monetary gain. If he were at all intellectually honest, he would long ago have come to the realization that the ‘big money’ is collected by the other side. Namely by the ‘religious right’ and the theocrating wing of the Republican Party. So, let us leave the ‘money’ aspect out of it. The only ones who bring it up do so only because that is their sole or primary concern.
People make mistakes, to be sure. But, if they were not raised to be irresponsible, they wouldn’t be. And that applies to both sexes. If they first respected themselves, maybe they would learn to keep their pants on, stay off their backs, and keep their legs together. Neither my nor Mr. Johnson preaching to them will do any good.
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 3:07 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Wait, wait, wait…
You defended the original poster as quoting biological fact…therefore, if every fertilized egg is a person, and you favor a D&C after a rape, how can you justify killing an innocent person, just because their father was a rapist?
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 3:17 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
The liberal ideology saved this country from greed before and it will do so again. Every comfort or benefit you were given as a worker was won for you by a “liberal” union organizer. Every civil liberty you enjoy was fought for by a “liberal”. The reason millions of senior citizens are not dying in government poor houses is because of “liberals”. Go study some history Willis, and see where your conservatives’ devotion to corporatism brought us in the 20s and 30s. Your precious “free market” economics is designed to allow unrestricted exploitation of the poor and unlimited wealth to the powerful. Was it the “liberalism” of George Bush that has assaulted the American middle class to the benefit of the super wealthy?
Your greed is palpable. Your support for the greedy is obvious. Just go look at Corporate Johnnys’ tax proposals. The truth is there.
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 3:19 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Violete: “Whether you believe in God or don’t believe in God, it is a fact that human life (like you and me) begins when the sperm fertilizes the egg (at the moment of conception). This is a biological and scientific fact.”
Wrong! This only illustrates the ignoramce of the writer about biology. Life does not begin at conception. Life began only once or a few times in the history of this planet. Life as we know it does not begin anew at each generation. It is merely passed along via sperm and egg to the next generation. The sperm is alive. the egg is alive. Every cell in your body except red blood cells contain all the genetic information necessary to give rise to a new individual. Cloning has demonstrated that nearly every cell in your body could become the donor of the nucleus for a new human being. So when did life begin for a cloned individual? Certainly not at conception since there was no conception. This illustrates the vapidity of the standard religious right’s conception of biology.
A fertilized egg is a bit of tissue comparable in every way to a kidney or a heart until it begins to develop the neurological connections between three or four months after conception which ultimately develop into a nervous system and a brain. Prior to that time an abortion is biologically equivalent to removing a kidney. And those are the biological facts!!
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 3:29 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Well, if you buy the theory that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, or that you’re going to a lake of eternal fire and torment if you don’t accept one (and only one) particular Holy Man as your Personal Saviour, it’s pretty easy to start skipping over logic and scientific fact in favor of dogma.
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:02 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Oh duke?
Every job benefit I ever got as a ‘worker’ was EARNED by me, and freely given by the employer.
The few employers I ever had that did not earn the benefit of my services found themselves without my services.
The reason there are senior citizens in financial straits are BECAUSE of failed liberal policies, social insecurity, mediscare, medicrap, etc.
It was lbj and his overwhelming liberal house and senate that stole the social security trust fund and put into the general fund to buy votes with.
No duke, this country was not built by failed liberal policies, but nearly destroyed by failed liberal policies.
Now, what is YOUR plan to repay all the money stolen from the social security trust fund, and spent by your liberals without stealing the ‘replacement’ funds from your grandchildren, great grandchildren, great, great grandchildren, etc?
IT IS YOUR POLICIES that stole their future from them.
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:04 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis, welcome back.
Are you going to respond to the question I posted in #14, above?
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:06 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
oh bobbie, from Delta.
One cannot take the money from abortions out of the equation simply for the reason IT IS THE EQUATION that draws liberal politicians to abortion mills in search of campaign dollars.
Why else can you explain that abortion mills donate so heavily to liberal politicians and seldom to conservative politicians?
Oh… wait….
That is fact, and facts are not allowed when discussing politics with loser liberals such as yourself.
Running for office in Delta County again yet?
Gonna try to beat your personal best of ZERO percent of the votes again?
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:11 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis….
I asked you a question.
Post #14.
Do you have an answer?
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:22 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Did you not read the answer curmie?
Dyslexia again little buddy?
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:26 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
You didn’t answer my question in #14, Willis. Don’t lie.
I challenge anyone to prove he did.
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:31 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Hey, Willis, we could tax the rich? Would that be OK?
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:31 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
So curmie, you know nothing of the medical procedure that was commonly known as a D and C?
Well, it is certainly good to know that some members of the really stupid BBB are willing to admit to not knowing everything about every subject.
That will make it much harder to make you look less educated than you may possibly be.
But you hang in there.
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:33 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Nevermind, Willis. I see it now.
You’re as big an intellectual coward as they all say.
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:35 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
I have a better idea duke, lets tax the liberals and let them pay for their failures in life instead of everybody else getting stuck with the tab.
And no, I really do not consider you to be knowledgeable on many subjects, thanks for not asking.
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:39 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
” Curmudgeon
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:33 pm PM This User Report this comment
Nevermind, Willis. I see it now.
You’re as big an intellectual coward as they all say. ”
Please feel free to explain this irrational outburst.
It appears to be an extremely immature personal attack based solely on your not understanding medical procedures.
Can it possibly be that you truly are as ignorant as the rest of the Bombastic Buffoon Brigade?
And I had such high hopes for you….
Well, slightly above the gutter hopes for you anyway….
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:40 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Simply put, Mr. Johnson, I asked a question about your opinion, based on your previous statements. You refused to answer, and then, when pressed, issued your usual insults. I thought it was an interesting question.
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:44 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
And simply put, a D and C procedure negates the issue of becoming a pregnancy.
That is medical fact curmie.
I thought you knew everything.
That’ll teach me to make an assumption about a liberal mind….
Posted September 2nd, 2008 at 4:49 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
But what would be the point of a D & C if the egg were not already fertilized, and therefore, by your reckoning, a person?
Seriously, the insults don’t matter to me….can you answer that question?
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 12:18 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
I find this article of scientific facts, referring to when life begins, more believable then anything I have ever read or heard about the subject.
The Code for Human Life
http://e-forensicmedicine.net/code.htm
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 6:48 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Curmie, go to a smart school next time and stop relying on others to provide your education.
H
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 7:18 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Nevermind, Willis. I’ll just ignore you like the rest of them have to.
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 7:46 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it, Curmudgeon. Willis is a coward, always was, always will be. He talks trash and never backs it up, he hides behind anonymity, and he cries foul and wants the Sentinel to step in when people call him the same names he calls them. As much abuse as he likes to heap on everyone on this board, he can’t live without us, now. We’re the only people in his life who can’t walk away from him, or get a restraining order. So we make him very happy, in his own little bitter, pathetic way.
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 7:47 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Tasha53,
Do you think the fact that the website you linked to has a significant portion devoted to the crucifixion and the Shroud of Turin might be an indicator of some bias in what it reports?
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 8:03 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Unfortunately this is based all on faith. This is not based in fact at all. There has not been any biological or scientific evidence when a sperm enters the egg that it is immediately human. There is no development of a brain, nervouse system, heart or anything that resembles a human. I am sorry but this is a fact. At time of conception yes the sperm and egg are alive just like everything else however it is not a human being yet. Sorry.
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 8:12 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
I regret to inform you that Mr. Johnson will not be joining the discussion for the rest of the day. He is in Time Out, with no internet privileges, after we caught him trying to purchase a Russian mail-order bride (it wouldn’t have worked anyway, as the poor bugger was trying to use a Frequent Renter Card from the 24 Road Bookstore). He became agitated and violent with staff when the owners of the website explained that no matter how bad things were in the former Soviet Union, there were some things that Russian mail-order brides just wouldn’t do.
Sincerely,
Dr. Sigmund Fraud,
Chief of Staff
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 8:19 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Dr. Fraud,
Thanks for the update. Scott was waiting for an answer from WLJ on a forum thread. We were concerned that he may have hurt himself in his frustration at being exposed as a prevaricator.
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 8:28 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
I wonder if the brides can get legal assistance by e-mail?
I’ve heard there are three boxes on the courthouse desk where they process restraining orders: “IN”, “OUT”, and “THAT @(&)%$%&! WILLIS”….
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 8:48 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
It’s unfortunate, really; We had to deal with the same hysterical reaction (including hurling Precious Moments figurines) when Mr. Johnson was informed by Frederick’s of Hollywood that they wouldn’t send him any more XXXL panties until he provided written documentation that there was, in fact, a woman he was buying them for.
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 10:10 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
For those interested, I have an update regarding Mr. Johnson’s Time Out:
He has calmed down considerably, having been given a reward for NOT removing his undergarments; a 30-minute play period with a favorite toy of his, a sock puppet he has christened “Sean Hannity”. Owing to his method of operating said puppet (in a manner inconsistent with its design, frankly), it is sadly unsuitable for further use. Luckily, socks are cheap.
Sincerely,
Dr. Sigmund Fraud
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 4:36 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Violete Stevens said: “Murder is a conscious decision to kill a defenseless and innocent human being whose only guilt is being inconvenient.”
According to her, whenever a bomb is dropped that kills innocent human beings, then murder has been committed. Hmmm. Is she really in support of trials for all of our service men and women who had roles in dropping bombs over the years?
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 4:40 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
It is absolutely amazing to me how the people that usually have the most to say about abortion are men that will never be faced with the situation!!
Violete, how many rights are you willing to give up for others before somone takes your rights away? Were you ever faced with a situation where maybe you made a poor decision and had to find the best, not easiest, way to deal with it?
Are all of you willing to take on the un-wanted children that would be born to these mothers? How about letting the gay and lesbian community adopt them? What if these children grow up to be gay or lesbian? How about when these children are born into homes where they will be tortured and beat to death, would that be better than aborting a cluster of cells?
Don’t try to to say that it isn’t a “moral” issue, and don’t you dare try to push your moral’s on me…..I would never try to make you have an abortion!
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 4:52 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Jen - I agree with you totally. The entire situation can be summed up in a bumper sticker I saw in the “real” world (Denver) a few years ago. It read;
“If You Don’t Like Abortion, Don’t Have One!
Posted September 3rd, 2008 at 4:58 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Bubba, I dont think I have EVER agreed with you, but this time I do. I really wish that you would have left out the “real” world thing though, very condescending to people like me!
Posted September 4th, 2008 at 10:39 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
C52 “Wrong! This only illustrates the ignoramce of the writer about biology. Life does not begin at conception. Life began only once or a few times in the history of this planet. Life as we know it does not begin anew at each generation. It is merely passed along via sperm and egg to the next generation.”
Kind of a “circle of life” thing, eh? If that philosophy is played out then murder would not be the ending of a human life, just the termination of a small component of it. I think the writer was trying to say that she believes that the existence of that person begins at conception, not at birth.
Posted September 4th, 2008 at 11:00 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
GJBubba quoted a bumper sticker: ““If You Don’t Like Abortion, Don’t Have One!”
Good quote. Others may like another one which I remember:
“Keep Your Theology Out of My Biology”.
Both are good advice.
Posted September 4th, 2008 at 11:12 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Sullivan: “I think the writer was trying to say that she believes that the existence of that person begins at conception, not at birth.”
Then the question becomes what will you say about the new individual created by cloning? Since there was no conception, when did that life begin?
Posted September 5th, 2008 at 9:23 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Going on the bumper sticker theme, if you liked that type logic how about:
“Murder, if you don’t like it don’t kill anybody”
“The KKK, join us or leave us alone”
“If you don’t like air pollution, don’t breath”
“Slavery, if you don’t like then don’t own slaves”
That logic is that as a society, we have no business determining what is right and what is wrong, and that right and wrong are relative. If you follow it to its logical end you end up with anarchy. The Bible teaches that murder is wrong. Are homicide laws an attempt to push religion on society?
AHSIndian, Good question. I came up with “my” definition of “human life” while studying biology, long before I had any religious convictions. Bakc then pro-abortion forces were trying to convince society that the unborn was not alive. It was a two part test:
1 Are there biological processes such as respiration going on?
2 If the DNA was sent in to the lab for analyzation, would it come back as human?
That was well before the cloning technology existed, but identical twins are from a fertilized egg that divides and for some reason separates in the womb. My response to your question would be when the original conception took place.
Posted September 5th, 2008 at 9:48 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Sullivan states: “Bakc then pro-abortion forces were trying to convince society that the unborn was not alive”
That is based upon the false premise that people that does not fall into the camp of those calling themselves “anti-abortion” and who are for overturning Roe v. Wade, are “pro-abortion”. Such is not at all true. The fact that something is not purple does not mean that it is blue and the fact that if a letter is not “A”, then it has to be “Z”.
The issue is as to limiting the state as to how far it is to allowed to govern the mind and personal behavior of the individual, and upon what basis it acts. And, if it uses some ‘religious’ test in order to do so, it is imposing religion.
Sullivan, decries ‘relativism’. Not only does he do that, but is really advocating ‘absolutism’. He incorrectly assumes that his ‘religion’ is the only source of conscience or civilized behavior in man. History teaches us otherwise. There were prohibitions agains murder, theft, etc., long before Christianity even existed, or Judaism for that matter. Today, there are many cultures that prohibit such behavior, even without “Christianity”, Budhism being one such example.
Posted September 5th, 2008 at 9:55 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Sullivan,
“That logic is that as a society, we have no business determining what is right and what is wrong, and that right and wrong are relative. If you follow it to its logical end you end up with anarchy. The Bible teaches that murder is wrong. Are homicide laws an attempt to push religion on society?”
Not exactly. That’s one of the benefits that society provides - a definition of morality. Some things, like murder, are going to be prohibited in almost every society simply because allowing them will cause a breakdown of the society. If there is only one blacksmith in town and someone kills him, everyone suffers.
There are elements that do not have as tangible an impact on society in general. Abortion is one of them. Plus, since giving a single cell or a cluster of cells that are totally dependant on the mother for everything full rights, you by definition reduce the mother’s rights. Should a pregnant woman be allowed to go skydiving or would that be considered child endangerment? Given the choice between a woman and a cluster of cells, whos rights should take priority? One of them has to.
Posted September 5th, 2008 at 11:53 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Sullivan: “That was well before the cloning technology existed, but identical twins are from a fertilized egg that divides and for some reason separates in the womb. My response to your question would be when the original conception took place.”
Well, then even your own example raises some very sticky questions. If a human life was begun at conception, then how are we to explain the presence of yet another completely separate life when the original fertilized egg splits into two which ultimately become separate individuals? When and how did the two get their totally separate identities since no conception was involved in their genesis? When did they get separate souls, if a soul was implanted with conception? Are souls infinitely dividable? What about the cases of identical triplets or quads, etc. the divisions for which occur after the first one? As you can see, mixing religion with biology raises questions which are unanswerable in scientific terms and simply involve faith based platitudes.
Posted September 5th, 2008 at 2:47 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
AHSIndian/Scott/RLaitres/Sullivan - One of the positive aspects of the “new regime” on this board is whose missing from this particular discussion.
Under the “old regime,” this person (whose handle begins with the 23rd letter of the alphabet) would have been all over this subject. Considering the intellectual level of the discussion (which is far above this persons “pay grade”), he would have blasted away at you by (1) deliberately attempting to change the subject) or, (2) nasty name-calling to divert attention from the fact that he didn’t have anything to contribute at the intellectual level at which the discussion was taking place.
Under the new system, this person knows he can’t get away with his traditional tactics, so he must remain silent.
THANK YOU, BOB SILBERNAGEL. You have no idea how much we appreciate what you are doing.
Posted September 5th, 2008 at 2:56 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Not so my friend,
I made my comments in the first few posts, and then in post #14, Classof52 echoed my position that life precedes conception.
My point was made, and proven by an expert in the field.
The nasty name calling is only after a substantial amount of lies and name calling directed at me, is it returned.
And Yes Mr. Silbernagle, thank you for finally taking an interest in the civility level on this site.
It would have been much more effective a month ago when American_Patriot, myself and several others tried to institute a “Code of Conduct”, that was systematically destroyed by those who would either control or destroy this website.
Posted September 5th, 2008 at 9:01 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
RLaitres,
I stand corrected. A more accurate description would be “pro-legalized abortion.”
“He incorrectly assumes that his ‘religion’ is the only source of conscience or civilized behavior in man.” Actually, if you re-read my post you will see where I stated “I came up with “my” definition of “human life” while studying biology, long before I had any religious convictions.” My convictions began prior to any religious faith.
“He incorrectly assumes that his ‘religion’ is the only source of conscience or civilized behavior in man.” While my personal conviction is that abortion is immoral, a major contention that I have with legalized abortion is that did not come about legislatively or through through the ballot process, but through a bizarre interpretation of the Constitution by an activist Supreme Court decision. Your assumptions about me are grossly inaccurate.
Scott
“That’s one of the benefits that society provides - a definition of morality.” Agreed. Let our society, through legislation or ballot initiatives decide this issue.
AHSIndian
The reason that I used quotation marks when I said ‘“my” definition of “human life”’ was to acknowledge that these are just “my” opinions to not suggest that my views should be forced on everyone. There are no simple answers to a complex and emotional subject, and our society should be basis of coming up with a solution. Will it be a perfect solution? No, absolutely not. Will I agree with it? Maybe, maybe not.
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