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Another bond issue for School District 51 is in the works but before I throw my support behind it, I’d like to ask a few questions to the stewards of our money.
How come when I attend a football game at Central High School I have to wade through putrid water on the track to reach the stands? Why are the fences and lawns in such disrepair? Why is it that only middle schools in Grand Junction and Fruita have track and field facilities to practice on? Why do the funds seem to continually go to the schools where the professionals live and not the working class areas like Orchard Mesa and Clifton?
I live on Orchard Mesa and my son goes to Central and the lack of credible maintenance in these boundaries is abysmal. The district needs to prove to me that they can maintain what they have and then ask me for more money to build more schools.
ALLEN BURNS
Grand Junction
22 Responses to “School district has some questions to answer”
Posted September 15th, 2008 at 10:50 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
There are many reasons to support this issue. Many people condemn the teachers, administration, and anyone else in the district for believing this may be a good idea. Have you ever set foot in the classes? Have you ever watched what these teachers have to put up with from your kids?
I could never be a teacher, and the teachers have my total respect because they can put up with your children. Noone wants to take responsibily for the education of their children, either due to lack of want, or lack of responsibility, but these great people do so every day. Why should we support this? Because it will lower the amount of kids they have to teach per class and your child, or grand child will have more one-on-one time due to smaller classes.
Most people only want to look at the district “giving” away that 1 million dollars and say it was wasted money. Did you read more than the headline? Did these people do any real research as to why it was given away? How about the fact that if a child excells that they get to go to college for free when they get to their Junior year? How about the fact that parents don’t have to pay for facilities at the college for another 10 years if their kids are still in high school? We as people don’t look at this fact, we read that the district GAVE away a million and then want the administrators thrown out. In my opinion they are doing a very good job and are doing their best with what the community will give them.
All I can say is give them a break and a little support. If you have questions call the PR person and ask questions, you may be surprised at what you may learn. They do most everything to make sure the children of this valley get the education they need within the funds they are given. You want better schools, vote yes on the bond, give the great teachers smaller classes and give your children better facilities. Vote no, and condemn your kids to the same ole education you have become used too. The choice is yours, but I can bet there is always someone out there who thinks they can do your job much better than you untill they are actually put to the test!
Posted September 15th, 2008 at 11:05 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
While I am an admirer of all forms of knowledge and eductation, and believe that, if well done it is an investment and not an expense, I also believe that we are getting very little for our money. And, prior to pouring any more in, the first thing to recognize is the the State of Colorado is one of two states that has the lowest of academic standards. And, those have to be raised.
In discussing this with a retired ‘teacher’, he reply was that it was because the teachers were not being paid enough money. Really? The last time I checked money has absolutely nothing to do with setting standards. It may be an impediment to achieving them, but not in ’setting’ the standards themselves. All that takes is ‘brain power’, with an eye to what one is attempting to do.
Most parents send their children to school to become educated, not to be indoctrinated or warehoused. It is to those parents, and others in the community who really care, that we should pay attention to, not the administrators or teachers and performance of tests so that the administrators or teachers can ‘look good’ and keep getting a paycheck.
By far the greatest benefit to becoming educated, is to learn to think for oneself. The way that some of our educational institutions are being run is more like ‘trade shcools’ where students go to be ‘taught’. They never transition over to the realization that they are their to learn, not be taught.
Posted September 15th, 2008 at 11:38 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
RL, I couldn’t agree with you more. However, there are those parents that believe that their children are sent to school only to be taught the ways of the world. It really does hurt my heart to go into a class where seniors are being taught to do fractions. Now, I do believe this is partly the teachers fault, but as a parent I do believe that the burden should also lie on the parents as well. I am just a guilty as feeling that I am too busy to help at times to help, but I have also come to realize that it is just as much my responsibility to teach my children as it is the teachers’. When TV or going out to do our own thing becomes more important than teaching our kids they are the ones that suffer, and ultimately, us as a society.
On a side note though, I have also been in on the parent teacher conferences when the parents are ripping the teacher a new one because their child isn’t excelling, but when asked what they are doing to help the process the response is: “it isn’t my job, you’re the teacher”. How far do we let this go before we, as parents, take responsibily for our children?
On a side note as far as teachers getting paid fairly though, have you ever looked into the pay scales of the teachers, or seen how they get their raises? This is very unfair in my opinion, as they start at a very low wage considering what they are asked to do. Then what happens if one teacher is below average on these, in my opinion, unfair tests, yet one produces extreamly high results? Nothing! The subpar teacher gets the same step (raise) as the excelling teacher. Now how many people in the corporate world are going to try to go above and beyond when there are no forseeable goals or rewards? I know that if I can out work you, yet get paid the same as you whether I work my butt off while you sit on yours (please take this as an example and nothing more) how long am I going to work that hard before I say “oh well” and give the same effort as you? There is no reward for harder work or better teaching and I really think this needs to be changed. Many times I have seen the teachers reward the students out of their own pockets for excelling but have no reward awaiting for them.
Again, I am not a teacher, nor would I ever be. I see what they deal with day in and day out and want no part of it. I think the good ones should be rewarded and the poor ones be punished. But the bond at hand does not look at this at all, the only ones that suffer from a “no” vote on this bond are the kids. Are we really ready to make them suffer from insuffecient teachers, or insuffecient parents? I know I am not.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 7:26 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
The putrid water represents the evil slime of psuedo-education and brainwashing that takes place in School District 51.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 9:15 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Hailthor: “The putrid water represents the evil slime of psuedo(sic)-education and brainwashing that takes place in School District 51.
Obviously there was some PSEUDO-education going on in this writer’s English classes.
Why don’t you give us some examples of the brainwashing you claim are going on Hailthor.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 9:21 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Wow. Class, you’ve developed a real nasty streak as of late, indulging in the very ad hominem attacks we have grown to know and loathe from Willis. Your comment could have easily been made without maligning hailthor’s education. What gives?
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 9:45 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
supportthedist states: “On a side note though, I have also been in on the parent teacher conferences when the parents are ripping the teacher a new one because their child isn’t excelling, but when asked what they are doing to help the process the response is: “it isn’t my job, you’re the teacher”. How far do we let this go before we, as parents, take responsibily for our children?”
Those who attack the teachers and professors most loudly are those who have never lived up to their own responsibilities. They don’t even know what that is. They can’t possibly teach or demand responsibility of their children if they have none themselves. They are attempting to hide their own failures, as parents.
But, is that not an intrinsic part of our current culture, that it always the fault of someone else? Name me one are where that is not seen. We see it in the area of politics, economics, and even religion. That is the cosequence of living in a society of selfishness, greed, and gross irresponsibility, and at all levels.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 10:48 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Blaming the parents is an excuse profferred by the educational establishment to try and cover its failure to perform. 25% of 10th graders cannot read adequately, 50% cannot write adequately, 50% have inadequate knowledge of science, and 70% cannot do adequate levels of mathematics. So, which is it? Are 25%, 50% or 70% of parents bad? How can they be good reading parents and bqad math parents? It is a educational system failure, not a parent failure.
Educators (see Asst Superintendent Schultz) say they are working hard. So what? If you are not working hard, then you better either be your own boss or be ready to look for a new job. Eveyone collecting a paycheck better be working hard. A 30% dropout rate strongly suggests that while eveyone may be working hard, the educational system is working at a dismally low performance level.
The flaw in the bond issue is simple. The district refuses to budget enough money for reasonable levels of maintenance. The refusal results in more rapid deterioration of buildings resulting in more and more requests in future bond issues to pay for deferred maintenance which is then repaid with principal plus interest. Paying for routine expenses (maintenance)with capital dollars plus interest is BAD fiscal policy. The fact that lots of school districts do it is not sufficient. The Tabor overide measure on this ballot, like the previous issue, does not produce enough money to address this issue on a sound fiscal basis.
The district chronically overstates its need for space, like any other group using other people’s monies to make their work spaces. They will always want more space (until the next energy bust). Their last bond issue produced a consultant’s report identifying $440 MILLION in needs. The board went for less that $200 million, a number that did not even address all of the “code and safety” issues identified in the study. This issue’s numbers were drawn up by a district committee, a committee that was not anymore original in thought or supportive of “outside of the box” thinking than any other board-appointed committee.
It is regrettable, but absolutely true, that the passage or failure of this issue will have NO effect on student outcomes. Bond issues never do because there is no acocuntability measure. After the mony is spent the board will claim to have done everything they promised, or more, or less and blame increased costs for not getting evrything done. But the board will not produce a pre-work and post-work checklist so these items can be checked — see air conditioning for the GJHS gym.
This comes down to a pretty simple decision when one marks the ballot, except for the issue of 2 smaller high schools, does the voter think that the increased dollars they will pay (directly in property taxes and indirectly paying for increased expenses of property owners) is worth more than the satisfaction of new/improved school buildings? Nothing else will be addressed by these issues.
There is no justification for two smaller high schools other than to have one in every backyard. High schools of 1700-2000 students are by far the best student-performance size in Colorado — period.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 11:11 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
My problem isn’t the money that’s asked for; it’s where that money is going. Like so many other governmental entities, School District 51 is top-heavy. Too much money spent “analyzing” the problems and not enough money spent fixing them.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 11:27 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
oneperson responds: “How can they be good reading parents and bqad math parents? It is a educational system failure, not a parent failure.”
oneperson takes the opposing view but, who is supposedly ‘in charge’ of that district? The school board and the administration ‘run it’. That is true. But like everything else, the ones ultimately us. And, unless we get off of our collective and individual backsides, demanding performance and accountability from the school boards to the parents and students, then nothing will change.
I would ask oneperson how much attention he/she pays to what is happening in the school district? How many citizens, parents and non-parents alike, have ever attended a school board meeting? I have, and what I saw was nothing more than ‘a mutual admiration society’, everyone complimenting one another about what a wonderful job they were doing (even if that performance was obviously mediocre).
As to parents, while it is the responsibility of the teachers and schools to teach subjects, it remains that of the parents to insure that their children get eductated. Those that do not pay attention on a regular basis are derelict in that obligation. And, it does absolutely no good to show up ‘after the fact’, and do nothing but whine, point fingers, and offer excuses why “my little darling” can’t read or write. Too many of them are there to ‘get grades’, not to learn anything or obtain an education.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 11:38 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
As far as the bond issue, even though I am a homeowner and it will make my taxes go up a good bit I am most concerned about what it does to small businesses tax load, which is already obscene. It seems they always get hit 10 times worse with these things.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 12:55 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
“I would ask oneperson how much attention he/she pays to what is happening in the school district? How many citizens, parents and non-parents alike, have ever attended a school board meeting? I have, and what I saw was nothing more than ‘a mutual admiration society’, everyone complimenting one another about what a wonderful job they were doing (even if that performance was obviously mediocre).”
Not that it means anything, I have served on and chaired building accountability comittees every year at every level while my daughter was in school, served on and chaired the district accountability committee, served on and chaired the “Closing the Achievement Gap” Committee, served on the Academic Calendar Committee, served on the District Leadership team that developed the current strategic plan, represented the district as a speaker at a state standards conference, and represented the district at a national educational reform conference. And, I also have attened board meetings. And that is all okay and it makes no difference.
One does not have to have served on any committee. They simply need to be aware of the district’s goals and how those are measured. Then know where to look to find accurate data from the measures. Then compare the results over time looking for trends.
Service on committees can be a detriment to improvement because the natural tendency is to “make friends” when actually community members are “bosses”. In employer-employee reviews, friendship takes a back seat to performance. On district committees, friendship and “not-rocking-the-boat” take preference over performance.
So, my service means little, but my awaremess of the data (which anyone can do if interested) is more important because, as the leader of a district that markedly improved said, “If you are not using data, you are just another person with an opinion.”
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 1:19 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
oneperson is honest in the response, and wish to compliment the individual for his/her contribution. But, I would disagree that his/her service means little. I must agree that ‘too close’ a relationship is detrimental to objectivity, in any area. That is, unless one is aware of it happening.
The leader of ‘the district’ may be right, but what data is being used, if skewed how, and which party does it serve?
We know that Colorado is one of the states with the lowest academic standards nationally. So, even if all the students ‘passed’ with straight A’s, they still would be lagging behind students in other states. As I have mentioned in a previous post, it is the ’standards’ that are paramount. Everything else is subservient to those. It does not good to jump a barrier one foot high 10 times, if one should be striving to jump one 10 feet high, if only once. And that is what we have to realize and get back to doing.
As far as ‘accountability of school boards’, there really is none. I have read the statute governing that process and not only do members of the school board select who will serve on that body but the accountability board is restricted to looking only at those areas agreed to by the school board. That is not accoutability but ’sham’ accountability and ‘appearance of accoutability’.
Oneperson and I have had experience with different boards. He/she may be more familiar with her district, and I am familiar with the Delta district, and its cronyism is quite evident, for anyone who has attended any of their meetings (irrespective of the issue of the past superintendent) now under indictment.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 1:29 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
May I go off-topic for a moment to say that I notice a much more pleasant tone to the discussions hearabouts, of late? I like it.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 1:42 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Definitely, dc -
I think most people here are mature and level-headed enough to see that the people who disagree with them aren’t ignorant inbred rednecks, or America-hating terrorist sympathizers.
There will always be those who use the anonymity and detachment of the internet to work out whatever psychological issues they may be dealing with, but it’s beginning to dwindle down to just a few prime examples.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 2:05 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
I would add, however, that if this blog ever becomes humorless, I will abandon it forthwith. I have read some pretty funny stuff on this site.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 3:38 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Curmudgeon: There will always be those who use the anonymity and detachment of the internet to work out whatever psychological issues they may be dealing with, but it’s beginning to dwindle down to just a few prime examples.
I’m going off topic also, but I have to ask Curmudgeon about his statement above. Curmudgeon is an anonymity, at least I have never seen it as a name. (being that the meaning of Curmudgeon is; an ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions, a bad-tempered, difficult, cantankerous person). Does this mean, if you are using an anonymity yourself, you fit in with the latter part of your statement? Please clarify this for me.
Just to let you know, my name is Natasha, (I go by Tasha). The 53 is the year of my birth. Therefore, I myself, do not use an anonymity. (But at the same time, I am not accusing you of referring me as part of this group), just wanted to make that clear.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 4:24 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Tasha - If you think I meant you, you’re mistaken. I’ve never seen you using language or make statements that would require you to hide behind a pseudonym. Okay?
Most of the names here (including mine) are pseudonyms, and therefore, anonymous. If I were to claim everyone was using a pseudonym to hide behind, that would be casting aspersions on 99.99% of the board. I would not do that. The last sentence ended with “…it’s beginning to dwindle down to a few prime examples.” Didn’t it?
I won’t split hairs about what’s anonymous and what’s not, because while we differ on what’s “anonymous”, I think the point is, I was not referring to you in any way.
Fair enough?
As for my own pseudonym, I picked it because that’s what my wife calls me.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 4:50 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Curmudgeon,
Fair enough. But most of that wasn’t necessary, since in my last sentence I said; but at the same time, I am not accusing you of referring me as part of this group.
And I don’t believe we differ on what’s anonymous is.
I admire your wife.:)
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 6:58 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
In response to oneperson’s post #8 and post #9, I do agree that the district wastes too much money and time analyzing and way to much on their consultants. However, when it comes to the fact that they are asking for less than 200 million I have to commend them on this. They know that the people are more apt to vote yes when it comes to that amount of money, and know that if they would have asked for the whole amount it would have been a definite no. Better to fix a little than nothing at all, isn’t it? It is all politics when it comes to the money that they ask for, but I have seen the plans, been in quite a few meetings about this bond, and know where the money is allocated. Would it change your mind if the district showed you exactly where they planned on spending their money that is generated by this bond? Is your mind already made up because of the whole Mesa State “giveaway”?
As far as your conclusion on the 30% dropout rate, how can this be the teachers’ or the administrations’ fault at all? They can not make the kids stay in school, they have no legal right to drive to any parents’ house and drag the child to school. It still comes back to us as parents, my children will have the same rules as I did growing up. Stay in school, or step into an adult’s world and play that role, rent included. The major problem that I have seen with the kids is lack of parent involvement. Teachers can not be in little Johnny’s life 24/7, so when the child has been taught at the public school, then comes home, throws his homework aside and asks to go play with friends, instead of the parent feeling that they are being bothered, they should ask if all homework is done. Are our lives really so busy that we can not take the time to check their homework? Are we really so busy that explaining grade level subjects, or at least helping our kids understand them has become a secondary goal?
Maybe, maybe not, but it isn’t our place is it? The teachers should have taught them well enough to know how to subtract those fractions in the 30 minutes of class they have the kids that they should be able to do it no problem. So what if there are majorly disruptive students in the class, or the possibility that your student IS the one being disruptive, he should be spoon fed until he gets it. But this should come from the teacher, not the parent because it just isn’t their job to care enough to teach their own kids, that is why we have teachers, that is why they have a job, right?
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 9:27 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
1st paragraph….It is all politics when it comes to the money….
Truest statement of the day and the saddest as well. And the source of most problems and the reason things are unlikely to change. It is all politics — it needs to be all kids!
The district should have published a detailed checklist for the bond BEFORE or as it was approved by the board and then, when the money is spent, there should be an independent review of that detailed checklist to see what was done, not done and why.
2nd paragraph..
How can a 30% dropout rate NOT be the fault of the educational system? Do you think kids who are successful dropout? Every kid in kindergarten has a response to the question, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” And the answer is never “a dropout”. After being in the educational system, 30% of them opt to dropout, why? Do you think they don’t know that without a high school degree your chances of living in poverty are astronomical?
Have you looked at the correlation between increasing level of student success in districts that have improved and the simultaneous decrease in dropout rates? Make kids successful and they will stay around, period.
It is strange to me that parent involvement is the cause of the problem. Go back, look at the %’s in the first post and tell me how 70% of parents are not involved in math, and yet at the same level only 25% of parents are not involved in reading.
Paragraph 3…
I don’t understand the “30 minute” comment so I’ll pass on the paragraph for now.
As for, “is your mind made up…”? My guess is that the issues will pass with a vote for it of about 51-54%. Communities in Colorado ovewhelmingly support school bond issues. My regret is that, if passed, the board of education members are going to assume this is somehow an endorsement of how they are running the district. They will use that idea to further delay making any real change that will positively affect student success rates. To me, that might be the strongest reason to vote “no”. Maybe the board might decide that “the direction of the district is great” is not an adequate summation of district efforts. You know, as well as I, if the bond issues fail, it will be back. So, that is why I would chose to vote “no” if I do, simply to send the message that “all is NOT well in River City.” I think the frustration level with the district’s performance in many area is growing and other that rejecting the bond issue, I don’t believe the adults in the district or on the board give a - - - -.
And yet, I have never voted “no” on a bond issue and I’m not sure I am ready to yet. Still have some time to “flip the coin”.
Posted September 16th, 2008 at 10:17 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
With the 30 minutes I meant the amount of time a teacher has with their students per day, or every other day, unless they are on the block schedule which is fairly new to this district. I can also understand your concern with there not being a checklist, but if you want it, which you have shown you do, then get together more people and put pressure on the higher ups.
You are completely right when you say that there are some that don’t give a #@$%, but there are those of us that really do. Put the needed pressure on these people(which is needed) and get better people, get new people on the board if need be, but as a parent myself, I had to realize that it takes more than just the teachers to have an impact in our kids’ lives. It took ME sitting in on a few classes for a few hours to see what they are required to put up with before I understood. If you really want to see where I am coming from, volunteer in a few classes, mostly being the middle and highschool levels, and see how much respect these teachers really deserve. They have my upmost respect as I would not have the tolerance to have a kid literally spit in my face and tell them that things do get better.
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