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America today requires that all citizens and non citizens be called forward with a plan of action. Americans have to come together, work together and make sacrifices. No more finger pointing, no more partisanship. Democrats, Republicans and other parties; big business, small business and workers have to be in this together. Following are the ideas we propose. Government in all it’s forms, all business enterprise people should be able to propose even better ideas.
This is no time for anyone to sit on their asses as bystanders and spectators:
1. Call upon American people to leave their money in the stock market and in banks. We need to make the economy move forward again. This is no time for Hoarding. This is no time to restrict spending.
2.Call upon banks to declare a moratorium on home foreclosures and/or renegotiate interest on existing home loans in order that loan principle balances be more in line with current home values. This is no time to hurt people more than they are hurting already
3. Call upon employers to do their best to keep existing employees on their payroll. This will prove prudent and necessary. 4. Call upon business owners and business executives to return excess bonuses. This is no time for greed or gluttony in times like this.
5.Call upon workers to forgo increased wages and bonuses.
6. Call upon consumers not to delay major appliance and auto purchases.
7. Call on Congress to declare a moratorium on capital gains on sales of investment properties. It is time to encourage all business activity.
8. Call on Congress to impose an excess profits tax on major oil companies.
9. Call on energy companies to reduce prices and profits on diesel and other fuels or tax it more. Use the money derived to give income tax credits on fuel to wage earners
10. Call on Congress to minimize restrictions on investor’s abilities to buy foreclosed properties
11. Call upon the US Attorney General to recover excess bonuses and golden parachutes that were fraudulently taken from failed banks, insurance companies and other large businesses.
12. Declare Mortgage credit swaps illegal. They are totally unregulated, resulting in obscene amounts of money being drained from credit markets. If not illegal they should at least be treated as securities and abide by existing regulations
13. Increase criminal penalties for white collar crimes. Just as looters can be shot during hurricanes perhaps we should those that defraud in times like this.
We are hopeful that intellectuals, business leaders and government officials can come forward with their own positive plan of action and recommendations that can quickly be implemented.
We especially ask Sen.Obama and Sen. Biden to come forward with a positive plan of action. Just as President Lincoln pulled the nation back together with his Gettysburg Address and President Roosevelt rallied the nation in 1934-1935 and just as Winston Churchill rallied The English and Americans against Hitler in 1940, it is time, that you rally this nation back to greatness. The time for great leadership is now . However, we cannot just count on you, we need every American citizen and lover of America to think and act in positives ways in coming to the aid of their country.
Unfortunately there is more to fear than fear itself. We should fear the consequences of inaction and of hoarding assets. We should fear runs on the stock market and banks. Worst of all we should fear the rise of right wing Hitler types attempting to create their own agenda.
Workers, lifeblood of our communities, are facing economic, health and other unknown hardships. Our suffering will be passed on to other countries. What have we wrought? Shouldn’t we pushing ourselves on to greatness or will we allow the current situation to lead us not to “fighting on the beaches and never surrendering” but rather allow the current situation to leave us groveling in the streets. How great will America be then?
JOSE U LUCERO
JOHN MOORE
Grand Junction
33 Responses to “An Open Letter to Sen. Obama and Sen. Biden”
Posted October 9th, 2008 at 7:33 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
This plan is well intentioned but misguided.
Call #1 has already been wildly unsuccessful at stemming the incoming economic depression. Asking Americans to act as if their isn’t an inflation created depression here is ridiculous. What’s more ridiculous is any statement to business that says, “ignore market indicators, and proceed as if the economy is strong and demand for your products is robust.” Bush, Bernanke, and the rest of the Washington gang have been telling the nation to act as if there is no economic problems for quite some time now. All of these calls would require congressional mandate enforced by the force of law.
Call #2 would require congress to violate the provisions of private contract. Considering that they actually mandated many of the contracts they would be violating, why not? This isn’t too far away from the destructive course that we are already pursuing, so it is a relatively pragmatic idea. However, we all know how precedent works to the favor of continuation of anything previously accepted…this bodes poorly for whatever remains of the constitution.
Call #3 Keep all the workers working? Great idea, if there is demand for their services. This, of course, is determined by the population and what the population wants. If people don’t demand a service then how can you sell it? And if you can’t sell it then how do you keep paying your employees that you kept on the payroll? Wait….I got it! Have the Fed fire up the presses and send them some monopoly money! Hooray! We’re saved.
Call #4 Give back the bonuses? This will cover about….oh I’d say .001% of the losses sustained by the overall stock market in the last 3 days. I agree this is no time for greed and gluttony but is there ever a good time for greed and gluttony? Apparently there has been great times for these things lately because every one of us sat by ignorantly allowing our government to trample and ignore the constitution and it’s clear guards against excessive power (like the power of the Federal Reserve).
Call #5 Forgoing raises. This sort of clashes with the spend freely part of the rant, right?
Call #6 Buy all the cars and appliances you need with that extra bonus! Better yet, finance all of it so that way we can bury ourselves even deeper. Hey, the “brilliant” men that control our country are doing it why wouldn’t we dumb asses do it. The precedent is there, now follow!
Call #7 A moratorium on capital gains would mean that properties had appreciated in value and therefore had created a “capital gain.” LOL. Very few people are taking any “capital gains” right now. LOL.
Call #7 An excess profits tax seems strikingly arbitrary considering there are other industries with better profit margins than the energy industry. Why not make sure everyone isn’t excessively profiting and just nationalize all private business? I’m tired of other people profiting at all. Give me all the money and I will take care of it for you…you can send me the checks personally to 1143 White Ave GJ Co 81501
Call #8 9. “Call on energy companies to reduce prices and profits on diesel and other fuels or tax it more. Use the money derived to give income tax credits on fuel to wage earners.” This defies logic entirely. Taxes are added expenditures….always. These expenditures are always passed on to the consumer. That’s why prices go up if taxes go up. If you then give a tax break back to the wage earners the dollar value of the break will unavoidably be less than the original tax because the goverment isn’t free and it’s services of taking and redistributing tax money cost money.
Call #10 I agree, get rid of the government interference! (And redirect it back where it belongs, in calls 1-9)
Call #11 is the same as call #4, only they correctly recognize that force will be required to do this.
Call #12 I don’t know how mortgage swaps occur and I suspect neither do the writers of this letter
Call #13 I’m gonna get my gun and get to shootin’
Posted October 9th, 2008 at 8:05 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
What we need to do immediately bring back troops from all over the world and post them on the borders and seas that surround us so that we can protect ourselves rather than the entire world. Immediately rescind the 18th amendment that created the unconstitutional income tax and the Federal Reserve Act which defrauded citizens of their power over the money system and handed it to the wall street bankers. Institute the “Fair Tax” which is a consumption tax and can be more fairly and accurately enforced than the income tax can. Also, it includes all economic activity that is not taxed currently, such as “under the table” income and other illegal economic activities. Next, we need to immediately begin construction of the kind of highly efficient Mag-Lev transport systems that can be explored at http://www.maglev2000.com. This would not only make us militarily far less susceptible but would also solve a huge part of our energy problems. Next, we should change public school funding schemes so that the money follows the child rather than the child follows the money, ie the voucher system. A simple results based evaluation system would ensure that only productive schools would receive funding. Next, we should get rid of public ownership of almost 70% of the land in the west (excluding national monuments and national parks). A lot of this is very productive property and would definitely increase our productive capacity, plus we could make good on 40 acres and a mule for all the descendants of slaves. A list of the other “fixes” to our problems can be found at http://www.downsizedc.org. The system defined by our constitution of a very rigidly defined federal government that is occupied by defense, a functioning justice system, and physical infrastructure issues works better than any other system that the world has ever known. It especially works better than the centralized democratic socialism that we are sprinting full speed for with our current ideological climate. Undoubtedly, such “madness” as I propose here will be seen as impossible and unable to stop the incoming economic storm. However, what is ignored is that some economic pain is unavoidable when we have been blowing our economy up with monopoly money for 100 years and now the inflationary results of Keynesian economics will come home to roost no matter what is done. More than anything else we must move back to a system that follows Austrian economics. Please read anything by Mises, Rothbard, or Nobel Economics prize winner Hayek. Our current direction is predicted by these truly brilliant men.
Posted October 9th, 2008 at 8:28 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
David - The Libertarian approach you advocate would create anarchy. What we need is to nationalize most of the financial services industry and impose strict regulation on other select portions of the economy. Socialism will rescue our beloved country from the excesses of the Republican-inspired unregulated free-market system we’ve been forced to live under.
The revolution is at hand - embrace it!
Posted October 9th, 2008 at 8:41 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Anarchy is what will be created in actuality rather than as an assumption made on the message boards of our local newspaper if socialism is indeed pursued as it appears that it will. To assert that we have been living under a free market system is about as ignorant of reality as one can get. When a single individual cannot make an honest buck independently of any governmental scrutiny and oversight in the form of the 40,000+ pages of rules which govern the categorization and division of such an income it is impossible to say we live in a “free market” system. Are you serious? Truly unbelievable. Secondly, there isn’t a single industry in this country that doesn’t have a bureacratic agency breathing down their neck telling them how to do this and that and then fining them when they simply operate their business according to their own best abilities. We already live in a socialist system, we just don’t have the military enforcement capabilities to “make it all work.” These capabilities will be coming in short order thanks to misnamed legislative actions such as “the patriot act” FISA and the military commissions act. Wake up my fellow compatriot, socialism will not save us from anything, it will only provide the ideological vehicle to deliver us into poverty and ultimately subservience.
Posted October 9th, 2008 at 9:42 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
david_cox said:
“Next, we should get rid of public ownership of almost 70% of the land in the west (excluding national monuments and national parks).”
My goodness David you are suggesting that we do away with the very soul of our country. Places that people of free spirit, future generations, renegades, oil companies, adventurers, entrepreneurs, explorers, biologists, archeologists, and other such can work out their fantasies. Have you no imagination? Are you that practical/pragmatic that you leave no room for imagination. Shame on you!
Posted October 9th, 2008 at 10:29 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
David Cox: “Wake up my fellow compatriot, socialism will not save us from anything, it will only provide the ideological vehicle to deliver us into poverty and ultimately subservience.”
Oh, you mean like the Swedes and the Norwegians? Hard to believe that someone is arguing for less oversight of business in the light of the current situation and even argues with a straight face that too much business regulation got us into this trouble!
Posted October 10th, 2008 at 7:17 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
David - Socialism is the future - embrace it!
Posted October 10th, 2008 at 7:45 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Yet to hear any sort of a critical analysis of something I wrote having a logical error. Cof52 got closest but then again the swedes and norwegians are a long way off from total socialism which is communism. Think purest communist states such as Stalinist/Leninist Russia for the endpoint of “socialism.” The belief that leaders who have arbitrary control of the coercive nature of a state will only use it for good is not just foolish, it’s downright insane. Has there ever been a leader with these powers who did not abuse them significantly? Look at our current situation. We are attacking other countries under false pretense because our executive was given a blank check, we are undermining civil liberties and trampling the 4th amendment for the “safety” of adults (drug war). We’re doing so many socialistic activities it is impossible to go through any private function without seeing a hand of government in the mix. Now, apparently, we want to increase the speed at which we run toward total socialism or more correctly communism. People everywhere agree that we are headed in the wrong direction. This direction IS toward socialism and has been for the last 100 years. It’s pure stupidity and mocks the intrinsic nature of life that is, in fact, individualistic. People naturally want to have beneficial relationships with each other which is what socialism attempts to force rather than simply sanction. Oh and by the way the swedes and norwegian’s economies are totally headed down as well. Look to switzerland for an example on numerous subjects. They certainly don’t have government control of their banking and is it in convulsions? no.
Posted October 10th, 2008 at 7:52 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
What makes you think that the intrinsic nature of life is individualistic?
Humans are by nature social creatures. Our survival has been dependant on working together as a group for at least 100,000 years.
Posted October 10th, 2008 at 8:35 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Mr. Cox writes of socialism: It’s pure stupidity and mocks the intrinsic nature of life that is, in fact, individualistic.
Have you spent any time in the Scandinavian socialist countries? I have–my ancestry is Danish–and I can tell you that the Danes are as individual as you and me and don’t feel that their individuality is compromised by the government (in fact, the two have never come up together in conversation). Not only that, but Denmark is often named the happiest country on earth, while the US lags somewhere around number 15 or lower on the happiness scale. Stupidity? I don’t think so.
Posted October 10th, 2008 at 8:49 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
What is interesting is to watch Mr. Cox arguing from a position of fear, and arguing from, not a logical persepective, but an emotional one.
Like many, he never stops to consider that socialism, like capitalism, is nothing more than an economic system, what function and role any economic system plays in any society. His entire position is based upon the simplistic value judgment. “Socialism, bad. Capitalism, good.” Never does the gentlman stop to consider that there are variations of each. He can’t as he understands neither the purpose nor the proper role of economic systems.
Having constructed an entire economic ideology based on nothing more than value judgments, such individuals are incapable of looking beyond what they themselves ‘believe’. Nor should it be surprising that they can either recognize, or accept, that other countries and societes have every right to choose any economic, or any other system, under which they wish to live, or to use.
Posted October 10th, 2008 at 9:14 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Mr. Cox, like the Daily Sentinel, argues from a Libertarian point of view, that espoused by such organizations as the American Enterprise Institute, the Cato Institute, and other such ‘think’ tanks.
When looking at such organizations, I see very little real ‘thinking’, and much more advocating and propagandizing. Never mind that they are locked into the, by now, totally discredited ‘trickle down’ theory of economics.
Libertarianism, as a philosopy, lays the foundation for anarchy. Based upon the core belief that ‘only I matter’ or ‘me first’, and that the only obligations one has is to oneself, it does not allow for rhe recognition that there is no responsibility beyond oneself. That inevitably leads to not only the polarization of any organization, but to atomization. It forms nothing but ‘barrelf of marbles’ political and social constructs.
Posted October 10th, 2008 at 11:02 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Interesting to see how our liberals like to point to the socialist contries in Scandinavia for their success with socialism. Of course, they neglect to mention that these countries’ success is based on having found the motherload of oil off their coast which provides an unbelievable annuity to all the citizens of those countries. If the Scandinavian countries had our liberals posting here running their countries, they would never have been allowed to drill offshore and their wealth would never have permitted the success they have today.
As to this phobia against oil companies, and this desire to tax them and tax them, the writer of this letter ought to take a look at what has happend to oil prices in the last couple of months. If the trend continues, he will see an awful lot of expensive drilling projects come to a screeching halt.
Posted October 10th, 2008 at 2:12 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
David Cox said, “Look to switzerland for an example on numerous subjects. They certainly don’t have government control of their banking and is it in convulsions? no.”
David - With all due respect, your statement above shows you have little knowledge of the Swiss banking industry. In reality, banks in Switzerland (even the private banks) are RIGIDLY REGULATED by the Swiss government, and have been for over 200 years. Swiss government regulation is one of the primary reasons almost all banks there (with the exception of UBS) are experiencing few of the problems being faced by many other European banks.
Posted October 10th, 2008 at 2:18 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Scott said, “Humans are by nature social creatures. Our survival has been dependant on working together as a group for at least 100,000 years.”
But Scott, how can this be? The Religious Right is adamant in their belief that, according to their interpretation of the bible, the earth is no more than 6,000 years old.
Posted October 10th, 2008 at 2:21 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
RLaitres, I’m fearful of an uncontrolled government that runs roughshod on it’s citizens. Our constitution has been a protection against such abuses until recently. We have ignored the constitution and blatantly violated it recently. The constitution allows for localized forms of socialism. I agree with these forms of socialism. I also agree with federal government activities that could be defined as socialistic if they are sanctioned by our constitution, activities such as defense and infrastructure improvement. What I take such serious offense to is the federal government’s involvement in overall economic planning and control of industry. This is a serious mistake. We cannot allow the government to take over business. I doubt a whole lot of people will argue with me on this point, of course some will but they probably aren’t people who actually do any business (pensioners). What matters is that government has checks and balances so that we don’t get some sort of a madman in charge (like cheney) who could seriously disrupt life on earth. Federal socialism will provide such an opportunity to future extremists. Giving the secretary of the treasury such broad powers of spending is a giant step toward centralized power and centralized power is definitely THE problem.
Posted October 10th, 2008 at 2:23 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
I stand corrected on swiss banking.
Posted October 10th, 2008 at 2:47 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Okay, so we need to be wary of Obama because he’s either a radical liberal or a socialist (or both). Socialism is bad. Capitalism is good. Conservatives are capitalists.
Denmark is a socialist country (not really truly socialist, but socialist enough to be used as a negative example). However, Denmark isn’t a liberal country because they make a lot of money with their oil reserves. So I guess that makes them conservative socialists, if such a thing exists.
But then again, Denmark generates approximately 20% of their power from their wind farms and hopes to increase that amount to 50%. Not only that, but Denmark became self-sufficient in energy in 1997. Sure, they’re small (half the size of Maine) but with a population of 5.5 million, that much wind power is impressive. Sure, they’re tapping their oil resources, but they’ve been committed for a long time to alternate energy and not relying entirely on their own fossil fuel reserves. I don’t think you can compare US energy policy to Danish policy without taking this stuff into account.
Posted October 11th, 2008 at 2:34 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
david_cox states: “RLaitres, I’m fearful of an uncontrolled government that runs roughshod on it’s citizens.”
One should not be ‘fearful’ but concerned, not only about government running ‘roughshod’, but also what the other two major influences are doing in society, economic interests and religion.
In fact, of the three, ‘government’ is the least dangerous of the three, as it it merely a mechanism by which power over the citizenry is exercised.
The problem therefore is not ‘government’ itself, it is those who ‘own’ or ‘control’ the functions of government institutions. Those are the ones that must be very closely and constanly monitored, and by every single citizen. What is truly unfortunate is that far too many do not even recognize it and, as a result do not recognize the dangers until it is far too late to do anything about it.
Posted October 11th, 2008 at 2:45 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
One problem RL, the other two ‘entities’ that you mentioned, “economic interests and religion” DO NOT possess the ability to take at the point of a gun.
Nor do they possess the power to imprison or enslave.
“Unruly” government does possess those powers, and corrupt politicians have the power at their fingertips to destroy individuals lives, as well as the societal values of this nation.
A prime example is the fiasco that prompted what jokingly is referred to as ‘congress’ to steal the future generations of our citizens solely for the purpose of rewarding corrupt politicians and highly placed government appointees and bureaucrats.
A partial list would include, Joe Biden, Barack Obama, Charles Schumer, Christopher Dodd, Mr. Raines, Mr. Johnson and Ms Gorelich of fannie mae and freddie mac infamy.
I could expand on the list, but this is only a small town newspaper staffed by small town newspaper people so why go to the bother?
Posted October 11th, 2008 at 3:16 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis,
Ever hear of the Crusades?
Religion exercising power at the point of a gun (or sword, in this case.)
Posted October 11th, 2008 at 3:19 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Mr. Johnson responds: “One problem RL, the other two ‘entities’ that you mentioned, “economic interests and religion” DO NOT possess the ability to take at the point of a gun.”
Unfortunately, and as is usually the case, the gentleman would seek to respond while missing the central point. It is not the physical instrument of exercising power that is important, it is who controls the instrument of power. Government is but an instrument of physical coercion. The ‘choice’ as to whether that power is to be used, against whom, and to what purpose, is made by those in charge of governmental institutions.
Posted October 12th, 2008 at 2:51 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
We’re all socialists now
Posted by Paul Mulshine October 11, 2008 1:43PM
I’ve noticed lately that a lot of people seem to have discovered that Barack Obama is a socialist.
There’s a lot of that going around.
Socialism, I mean.
The only politician that I know of on the national scene who is definitely not a socialist is Texas congressman Ron Paul. And look where that got him. During the presidential primary campaign Paul was treated as a laughingstock by his fellow Republicans for such stances as his call for young people to be permitted to opt out of Social Security.
Paul’s having the last laugh these days. As you can see in this clip, the entire U.S. economy is now socialist thanks to the big corporate bailout, says Dr. Paul.
And then there is the unpleasant fact that every senior citizen in America is what my Aussie friends used to call “a dole bludger,” someone who takes welfare without working.
One such apparent dole bludger held forth at a recent McCain rally in Wisconsin. The old codger worked himself up into a frenzy that even the hot-tempered McCain might envy, screaming “I’m mad, I’m really mad!” and then shouting, “And what’s going to surprise ya, is it’s not the economy, it’s the socialists taking over our country.”
The old coot made it clear that the hated socialists are the Democrats. But assuming he was over 65, which he certainly appeared to be, the guy is receiving the benefit of at least two socialist programs. One, of course, is Social Security. There’s a reason they called it “social” security and not Capitalist Security. It’s a welfare program and the current codgers are getting a free ride paid for by working Americans. True, they paid into it, but anyone who lives a normal life span will get out a lot more than he or she put in.
And then there’s Medicare. The current crop of seniors paid a pittance into it during their working years, but they now have the benefit of a system of socialized medicine till the day they die.
Does this guy really want McCain to fight socialism in America?
Imagine McCain told this guy he was absolutely right and as of January President McCain would end Social Security and Medicare and pay back to senior citizens the amount they paid in, with interest. By February, this geezer would be at a rally demanding to have his Medicare coverage restored.
The truth is, Americans love socialism. They’d better. This is a socialist country. Here’s an interesting article that compares our government-funded health care systems, primarily Medicare and Medicaid, with other countries:
“The average rich-country government spends 6.7 percent of GDP on health; America’s 6.8 percent is very slightly higher. The national health systems of Canada and Britain cost about 6.9 percent of GDP, and that of Australia 6.4 percent. Germany’s government spends the most on health care at 8.9 percent of GDP, followed by Norway, Sweden, France, and Denmark.”
The big difference, of course, is that in most of those countries the socialized system covers everyone, while our socialized system covers just the poor and the elderly. Oh yeah, don’t let me forget government workers. They have a system of guaranteed benefits and early retirement that the typical Brit or Swede would envy.
So our system is socialism. It’s just an inept form of socialism. And it’s also an unsupportable form. The baby-boomer retirement was going to bankrupt us even before the recent market meltdown. Now we could be on the verge of a slide into Third-World status. I’ve been to countries where you need to carry a backpack just for the bills needed to buy a beer. It’s not a pretty sight.
The only way to prevent that would be to take the harsh medicine that Dr. Paul offered us during the primary season. But not a lot of Americans want that prescription, and I suspect the old crank in this video would be among the last to down a dose of it.
NOTE: Michael Cannon of the Cato Institute just sent me a link to this paper in which he argues that Obama’s plan is socialized medicine, as is Medicare. He doesn’t deal with McCain’s plan, but it is slightly less socialist than Obama’s.
Posted October 12th, 2008 at 2:58 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
You fans of Federal Socialism are about to find out what a wondrous and miraculous savior socialism is. Stay tuned for more good economic news and dramatically rising standards of living as the “BRILLIANT” socialists, Bernanke and Paulson, steer our economic ship to the safe harbor of communism. I can’t wait to hear the justifying and blaming that other crazy smart guys like RLaitres will do then. I have one idea of what they would say, “the free market just did so much damage and destruction those 400 odd years that that it was wreaking havoc on the continent of America that it undoubtedly will take good ol’ communism at least that long to clean up the mess.”
Posted October 12th, 2008 at 3:36 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
RLaitres, You advocate for socialism because it supposedly will make us civil. It will supposedly do this by getting everyone involved so that everyone will see that if they all steal from each other then the system will collapse. This expectation of a proactive citizenry must be met for the operation of socialist democracy. Each voter must also be well informed and relatively sane. Otherwise, the tenet control of socialism, or the theory of public control, is thereby found wanting of equality and just operation. Of any civilization known to the world, there has never been one where more than 50% of the population is educated, and well informed as well as proactively concerned with the state of the State. So, if I am indeed correct, and I am, then why would anyone argue for a state of economic control based on a theory that by practice has guaranteed all the idiots need is a minimum 51% majority to control economic direction? There is no doubt that we have that minimum here in our wonderful and sadly doomed country. Worse, those who are supposedly working for our ignorant masses to ensure that they get their proportional cut of the pie are purposefully and strategically de-frauding those constituents while raising a hullabulu about how they are saving them. I went through a “the world is perfect” stage right after I left college. I thought all that people need is to be informed of what is happening and have the truth be told to them in a straightforward manner. I thought, “surely after they hear the truth it will be a short time before they start getting upset and demanding that their puppeteers release the strings to them.” Unfortunately, this has not coalesced. What has been the stumbling block is comfort mixed with lethargic laziness and entertainment. They hear that things are screwed up and rather than investigating for themselves the causes of such a screw up they merely listen to the closest personality on television to subliminally tell them what the solution is in the midst of informing them of the problem. For instance, “Lawmakers today deliberated the final issues related to the financial rescue package designed to save our economic system from collapse.” This statement both informs of the problem and states the solution all at the same time. It does nothing to inform of the potential downsides of such a plan or that their is any other sort of potential action available at all. Then the lazy masses say “well they better make sure it’s done right,” because that is the only logical reaction to the prior statement if the prior statement was initially accepted or even given the potential for acceptance. They then move on to considerations of the potential pitfalls and benefits. This charade continues unabated while any truth they hear is sure to be presented in a manner that is fear based and luni. It’s a puppet show and the american public are the puppets. I mean seriously, we’re going to buy equity, or solid assets, with fiat money? And even more crazy, with fiat money during a time of massive debt? The plan is to buy all the “bad” debt with our countries debt which is getting more and more shaky, by way of negative debt rating action, which is in turn supported by the increased returns by taxpayers who are spending their increased money supply and paying increased taxes. Cleary this is a circular argument that necessitates increased money supply all the time or else the whole thing will collapse. This is why we have had increased inflation ever since the inception of the Federal Reserve and are about to experience dramatic inflation. They are combating this problem by having all central banks take similiar action in order to ensure that all the currencies inflate together and the markets response to the influx of cash is more difficult, if not impossible, to detect.
Posted October 12th, 2008 at 9:05 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Davis Cox said, “You fans of Federal Socialism are about to find out what a wondrous and miraculous savior socialism is.”
David - You’re correct and very perceptive. Socialism will lead us out of the destructive morass of Republican-inspired free-market capitalism - it’s just a tragedy that our (and the world’s) economy had to be virtually destroyed before people “saw the light.”
As I indicated previously, “Socialism is the future - embrace it.”
Posted October 12th, 2008 at 10:28 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
From the posts that accuse others of socialism, it is almost impossible not to arrive at the conclusion that they have their own ‘definion’ of that term. Some of us look at it as but another economic system, while they would seem to approach the term with nothing more than the simplistic value judgment of “Socialism, bad. Capitalism, good.”
Now, while it certainly their right to do so, it does not make much sense.
That may be because they have no real perspective as to the purpose, the proper function, or role of any economic system in the life of a nation or society. Do the benefits accrue to a ‘few’ or to society; i.e. all of the people.
In reading the opinion of none other than a ‘libertarian’, the individual stated that, in the current financial cricis, we already see ’socialim’. It is that the benefits of the current system are privatized, and the costs are ’socialized’.
The other fact that many in favor of so-called ‘laissez faire’ or ‘liberal’ capitalistic system conveniently forget, is that when they advocate ‘no rules. A system must have rules to be called a system. Not even the simplest of games can be played without rules. What makes proponents believe otherwise when applied on a grander scale? The truth is that they advocates of a ’system’ without ‘rules’. Some of us consider that nonsensical and a non-starter. It is also lays the philosophical foundaton for anarchy.
Posted October 12th, 2008 at 10:55 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
Scott,
” Scott
Posted October 11th, 2008 at 3:16 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Willis,
Ever hear of the Crusades?
Religion exercising power at the point of a gun (or sword, in this case.)”
Scott, in all honesty, have you ever heard of current events?
Or maybe the way things work in this country?
Posted October 12th, 2008 at 11:01 am Login to Send PM Report this comment
RL, your post #22 assumes that you have a superior insight into this issue, which you do not.
Your final sentence proves my point precisely.
” The ‘choice’ as to whether that power is to be used, against whom, and to what purpose, is made by those in charge of governmental institutions. ”
Not by “- “economic interests and religion” -”.
My original post included the entirety of that statement.
” One problem RL, the other two ‘entities’ that you mentioned, “economic interests and religion” DO NOT possess the ability to take at the point of a gun.
Nor do they possess the power to imprison or enslave.
“Unruly” government does possess those powers, and corrupt politicians have the power at their fingertips to destroy individuals lives, as well as the societal values of this nation. ”
I also notice that you refused to counter my claim of who is, and has been responsible for this debacle.
Why is that?
Posted October 12th, 2008 at 1:30 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
I certainly do not advocate a ‘no-rules’ system. I advocate a property rights system where people can purchase items and then possess full rights to those items based on the stipulations of the purchase contract. I also advocate the ownership of one’s self, our bodies and minds. In this system all grievances are tested against the principle of private property. IE if someone breaks into my car they have violated my private property rights and are subject to compensate me in proportion to whatever value was destroyed. The principle of private property also eliminates environmental degradation because it quantifies damages and requires aggrieved parties to demonstrate physical evidence of damage as well as proof of origination. If pollution control were accomplished via this route we wouldn’t have any pollution; our current system allows for all sorts of escapes from responsibility because grievances are filed with an un-elected bureaucracy which applies it’s rules arbitrarily depending on the situation and what behooves them. It just so happens that they are behooved to allow vested interests to trample the environment because they will lose their jobs if they don’t capitulate. If our court system handled property rights violations, like polluting ground water or in stream flow, then the arbitrary nature of the whole thing still depends on human error, that of the jurors, but systematically becomes far more transparent. Bureaucracies are breeding grounds for opaque decision making done by authority of transparent rules. Property rights, augmented by land use rules by local authority to ensure orderly and mutually beneficial development, are the way that this country creates wealth and sustainable human development, as well as squashing argument and providing for damage compensation. In the world of bureaucratic, centralized socialistic control, huge groups of people are lumped together and then all dealt with simultaneously. Why? Because the abuse and violations of contract have become epidemic. Bad decision making and ignorance is never the individuals fault, it is always anothers fault. I bought a hot cup of coffee at Micky D’s and I spilled it on myself. It’s their fault because the coffee was too hot. Who knows what ‘Too’ hot means, the temperature at which hot becomes too hot is arbitrarily defined or not defined at all but essentially the argument remains the same, totally undefined by measurable and quantifiable definition. The same goes for all the lawsuits against pharmaceuticals. Some people perceive benefit and others die from certain drugs. It’s impossible to know how you will end up when you are dramatically controlling a bodies natural function by way of synthetic excitation. The bottom line is that “buyer beware” is out the window in these situations. The reason that it is out the window is that no one would buy risky pharmaceuticals if they had to have personal confidence in their decisions concerning extremely complex drugs. But since the good ol’ consumer protection agency, ie the FDA, is here to reassure us all of the complete safety of these products, we blindly buy whatever they are selling. This is another example of why centralized socialism doesn’t work. There is a dramatic disconnect between the individual and everyday decisions if the government acts as their representative rather than themselves acting as their own representative.
In closing, it isn’t that I advocate anarchy, I don’t. I advocate a system of law that is quantifiable and definite. Property rights mixed with a courts system to sort through grievances creates just such a scenario. It is the group mentality and the system of group rights that obfuscates natural order, not natural order and property rights. What say you to this RLaitres?
Posted October 12th, 2008 at 3:20 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
David - By advocating doctrinaire Libertarian ideology, you are advocating anarchy - whether you admit it or not.
Posted October 12th, 2008 at 8:59 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
Well argued Ullr. You really need to back your point up with with a clear supporting explanation. If you just make a one line statement condemning a libertarian philosophy without telling us your reasoning you are not even participating in positive, enlightening discourse. You are just blustering.
Posted October 12th, 2008 at 10:15 pm Login to Send PM Report this comment
David - Essentially, Libertarianism advocates the virtual elimination of all government functions except national defense and the protection of absolute individual property rights. This is anarchy. Left to their own devices, people will NOT “do the right thing” (the current mess our nation finds itself in is a perfect example) as believed by Libertarians.
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